Challenge: Alternate Europe

how so ?
the romans managed to romanize large parts of the world, the russians managed to assimilate large parts of Non russian people. the slavs slavized the pre slavic people of the Balkan etc.

So, having migrating tribes scattering about is not equivalent to the Roman Empire's sustained and powerful presence in the West (in the East, the Romanization was relatively superficial), not sure how much the Russians Russified nonRussians, and the Slavs were only partially successful in the Balkans.

You don't have anything providing a force for the natives to either change their ways or be forced out over the entirety of this area.

To pick an example of a successful group, France takes its name from the Franks, but its language more from the Romance direction than the Germanic direction of the Frankish language.
 
a Pod in 0 AD
Rome breaking apart, because of a bad emperor, loosing a major war (maybe against the Persians) unhappines, invading tribes. will make Rome break apart.
And europe will be ruled by barbarians tribes.
Roughly at the same time, the proto slavic people migrate southwards, maybe because of invading turkic people ?
The slavs form a strong realm in central europe.
 
besides, who says borders must be identical with rivers and mountains ? Imperialistic countries wont stop conquering a certain area just because there is a mountain range. borders dont have to be based on that, there isnt a law which says "all borders must be arranged on geographical points". Aside from that, i do try basing some of my borders after rivers and mountain ranges. but its not like all of them have to be.
 
Last edited:
With a POD around the year 0 you wont get this area totally Slavic speaking but lets see what I can do:
Augustus dies early his successors mess the good old Republic/Empire/Blablabla up. The Romans are divided in several warlord states as Great-Khan Butta Flai and his nomadic horde attack 150 years later. They enslave the Scithi and Germani like the Huns. Many other tribes flee over Rhine and Danube to the in this Timeline not so rich Roman world. Khan Butta Flai dies. His sons Æh, Ess and Beeh are not able to hold the empire together. The Germanic tribes break free and join their cousins on their way to Rome. In this Timeline the border provinces were never really Romanized and the German language(s) spread further. One or two centuries later the Slavs arrive and coincidantial also a major plague. The plague kills many people and the Slavs can settle pretty freely at the Danube and even at the Po River in Italy. The Roman and Getman tongues of the eastern Alps are assimilated over the next centuries. But I dont see how you could turn Occitania and parts of Spain Slavic. It is just to far away from the slavic population centre. Even without the enormous cultural heritage of the Roman Empire and without Latin being a prestige language I can not imagine this areas turning Slavic.

EDIT: I would even see more German tribes staying in the east without the magnetic effect of a prosperous empire.
 
besides, who says borders must be identical with rivers and mountains ? Imperialistic countries wont stop conquering a certain area just because there is a mountain range. borders dont have to be based on that, there isnt a law which says "all borders must be arranged on geographical points". Aside from that, i do try basing some of my borders after rivers and mountain ranges. but its not like all of them have to be.

The problem is that you're asking for something that is held long term, which does tend to be around rivers and mountain ranges rather than just stretched in whatever direction looked good.
 
ok the slavs end up in the Po Valley, and then they expand westwards. soon the whole Alpes and the Po Valley are under their control. You see, i actually think that the lands of souther france and spain get settled first. maybe not really realistic... hoever some germanic tribes ended up in Northern africa.
The Balkan has also slavic people, however also turkic, greek influences, later the balkan people get assimilated aswell.
I mean i have nearly 2000 years to work with, i am sure, that such a big slavic empire could be possible, maybe unlikely, but not out of realm of possiblity.
also in this timeline, the slavs could be much more numerous than OTL too. so if many slavs migrate south, some of them end up in the Balkans, the other group ends up in the Po valley, later expands over southern france and eventually northern spain. and later those two slavic kingdoms form one state. kinda liek german unification. maybe thats more plausible ?
 
Last edited:
ok the slavs end up in the Po Valley, and then they expand westwards. soon the whole Alpes and the Po Valley are under their control. You see, i actually think that the lands of souther france and spain get settled first. maybe not really realistic... hoever some germanic tribes ended up in Northern africa.

The Vandals being in North Africa happened in circumstances that don't really seem like they apply here.

The Balkan has also slavic people, however also turkic, greek influences, later the balkan people get assimilated aswell.
I mean i have nearly 2000 years to work with, i am sure, that such a big slavic empire could be possible, maybe unlikely, but not out of realm of possiblity.
First you have to have a big Slavic migration earlier than OTL, then you have to have the Slavs manage to dominate these areas, and then it has to lead to a lasting polity.

And frankly, the second doesn't look likely at all judging by the OTL performance of the Slavs (and in regards to assimilation, the Germanic peoples). It's not inherently impossible, but it needs a lot more work put into it than "I have a long period to work with, so it might be possible".

also in this timeline, the slavs could be much more numerous than OTL too. so if many slavs migrate south, some of them end up in the Balkans, the other group ends up in the Po valley, later expands over southern france and eventually northern spain. and later those two slavic kingdoms form one state. kinda liek german unification. maybe thats more plausible ?
How? "The Slavs are more numerous" isn't just going to happen in a vacuum, even if it's feasible.
 
to be honest, my timelines, are more hypothetical worlds, i dont really fucos on them that much, not everything has to be 100% realistic, it should be possible, but doesnt have to be really logic. i most lack historical knowledge to do so, to really think about my timeline and such.

However where is the balto slavic homeland ? around the baltic region ? maybe they migrate a bit southwards, maybe they are driven out by nomadic barbarians ? they migrate south, to more fertile lands (like Hungary). this would allow their population to grow faster and they could be more numerous. In Hungary they would get some celtic and dacian influences (however dacian itself was quite close to baltic, so i think baltic, dacian and slavic were closely related languages once, before they split.


as to how they manage to culturally dominating those areas and have a lasting ´policy, i am not sure yet. i thought that the dacians, would be able to pull something like this off, they were one of the most advanced people beside the Romans. So maybe the slavs, balts or whatever you could call them in this early stage, learn from their culture and eventually overthrow them because they are more numerous, maybe there is a plague among the Dacians which harms them.
 
to be honest, my timelines, are more hypothetical worlds, i dont really fucos on them that much, not everything has to be 100% realistic, it should be possible, but doesnt have to be really logic. i most lack historical knowledge to do so, to really think about my timeline and such.

Well, I think I speak for most of us in saying that if you're not going to bother to pay attention to historical accuracy, we're going to call you out on it.
 
what do you mean with that ? my english is not good, so i dont really get what you are trying to say ? that i should stop posting ?
 
Some kind of POD like in world with a failed Charlemagne could work. Like where somehow the Saxons and Norse united to seriously defeat the Holy Roman Empire, even conquering Cologne. France during the "Do nothing Kings" breaks apart and the crown is claimed by the HRE, Brittany declares itself a kingdom and drifts away. There is major conflict between the Pope and the Donation of Pepin is resized. Eventually the King of Hungary is elected to rule the empire, uniting the realm in Berus' post.
 
what do you mean with that ? my english is not good, so i dont really get what you are trying to say ? that i should stop posting ?

That you should do research. If the idea of a more Slavic Europe interests you, spend time studying the Slavs and the Migration Period.

Tobit: Is there even going to be a kingdom of Hungary in its OTL location in this scenario? Or a HRE?
 
Tobit: Is there even going to be a kingdom of Hungary in its OTL location in this scenario? Or a HRE?

The Migration period and the idea of a more slavic europe doesn't really seem to get any closer to a country of those borders (I don't know why the Slavs would be any better at running a massive empire than the Franks). I was working with a POD around 750 AD to get those borders. From that period on I see that Normandy, Brittany, the Low countries, and about half of Germany are missing from Charlemagne's empire, including key cities like Aachen and Cologne.

So maybe a time traveler gave the Pagan Saxons and Norwegians AK47s? Or more realistically the pagans manage to adopt some of the advances that Carolingian rule brought that part of Europe but keep culturally and religiously separate. Hungary was a major force for Christendom during this period, and maybe without a christianized Poland they ally closely with the remnants of the HRE.

EDIT: Maybe Greater Moravia and those slavs could have done it, but the fact that Berus cuts up Bohemia leaves a key Slavic center outside the empire.
 
Last edited:
The Migration period and the idea of a more slavic europe doesn't really seem to get any closer to a country of those borders (I don't know why the Slavs would be any better at running a massive empire than the Franks). I was working with a POD around 750 AD to get those borders. From that period on I see that Normandy, Brittany, the Low countries, and about half of Germany are missing from Charlemagne's empire, including key cities like Aachen and Cologne.

I noticed. I'm trying to see how the pagans smashing Charlemagne's empire like this doesn't cause there not to be a HRE to begin with.

So maybe a time traveler gave the Pagan Saxons and Norwegians AK47s? Or more realistically the pagans manage to adopt some of the advances that Carolingian rule brought that part of Europe but keep culturally and religiously separate. Hungary was a major force for Christendom during this period, and maybe without a christianized Poland they ally closely with the remnants of the HRE.

Hungary was only Christian at all after around 1000 AD - a century or so after the Magyars first show up.

So you have more than two centuries of paganism and (Western) Christian failure. Plus whatever lead the Byzantine part of Europe to end up like this.

EDIT: Maybe Greater Moravia and those slavs could have done it, but the fact that Berus cuts up Bohemia leaves a key Slavic center outside the empire.

Yeah, it's things like that that make me think his map is just drawn as seemed interesting rather than based on any peoples or places.
 
its because the first map at the beginning of this topic was just a dumb idea. Right now i have different ideas. I try making a better version of the map soon.
 
Top