Challenge: Allied Japanese Expeditionary Force in Europe

With a POD of 1920, is it possible for Japan to join Britain and France against Germany and send a sizable JEF to the Western Front in 39/40?

The rest of the challenge stipulates that Hitler must still rise to power as a Nazi, take over Austria and Czechoslovakia before the war, make a deal with Russia, and crush Poland to start the war.
 
With a POD of 1920, is it possible for Japan to join Britain and France against Germany and send a sizable JEF to the Western Front in 39/40?

The rest of the challenge stipulates that Hitler must still rise to power as a Nazi, take over Austria and Czechoslovakia before the war, make a deal with Russia, and crush Poland to start the war.

The militarists not gaining power in 1926 would be a great starting point.

You know what, scratch that. Great Britain not terminating the Anglo-Japanese Alliance would do wonders.
 
I wonder what sort of ideas a japanese army would bring to the western front in 1939. On the logisitcal front assuming Britain and Japan are still allies would British ships be used to transport the Japanese contignet. I don't think Jpaan could realistically project forces to continetal Europe in 1939 without help
 
I think the first PoD taht must happen is that Japan must not break with the UK.

Then the intervention in Russian Far East would need to be more substantive and permanent. This would bring them into conflict with USSR and to withstand the inevitable wars they would need strong support from the Uk (including surplus WW1 tanks).

(This is the near ASB it but with a more strongly anti-communist UK not impossible)

With Japan holding a Manchurian style state in Russia, it's highly likely that Russia and Japan will end up competing for influence in China. A Japanese take over of Manchuria on the basis of preventing soviet inspired revolution is still possible (although by that time Russia should be capable of defeating Japan so it will be touch and go). A japanese anti-communist state supported by the British may be sufficient to quieten the Americans somewhat. In any case the distraction of holding on to their puppets in soviet far east and Manchuria will probably mean no direct conflict in China so no oil embargo (although UK would probably make up for it in any case)

WW2 kicks off and USSR is nominally hostile to UK and will certainly try to recover its far eastern provinces from Japan. This will push Japan and UK closer together although probably not sufficiently to prevent USSR from reoccupying the far east al la Winter War (i.e. huge casualties but successful in the end). Realpolitik will limit British (and French) support for the Japanese. Japanese may gain North Sakhalin in the end.

With the onset of Barbarossa Japan has the choice to flip alliances and recover Russian far East (which would trigger OTL WW2 strategy to replace oil etc) or stick with the Allies (including new found "friend" in the Soviet Union).

Japan will be relatively safe from outside forces so could sends some expeditionary forces to Western Desert and then Italy. China will be a mess of Warlords and Japanese may well try to squash the Chinese Communist "by proxy" whilst USSR is distracted. This may end up with another Japanese puppet in north China or an enlarged Manchuria.

WW2 ends with Japan holding all of Sakhalin, Korea, Formosa and with a strong puppet state presence in Manchuria. A renewed proxy war in China is likely against both Chinese Nationalists and communist insurgents but who cares as Japanese troops are part of the occupation/ liberation forces in Vienna and Italy.

ATL done.
 
I wonder what sort of ideas a japanese army would bring to the western front in 1939. On the logisitcal front assuming Britain and Japan are still allies would British ships be used to transport the Japanese contignet. I don't think Jpapan could realistically project forces to continetal Europe in 1939 without help

At that time approx 40% of the cargo passing in & out of Japans ports was carried on foreign flagged ships. In OTL: Japans cargo fleet was between 20% & 50% short of requirements for industry & militiary operations, depending on how you count it up. Of course without a war in China that would change considerablly & it is difficult to predict exactly what Japans requirements & cargo fleet capacity would be in this scenario.

Doctrine is another tricky one. Without a war in China Japans army would probablly have a hypothetical war with the USSR as it influence. Any expeditionary force would probablly not reflect entirely the Japanese forces back home in Asia. I would not even guess what the new generation of army aircraft would look like. those developed after 1938, the AM5 Zero generation, would not be influenced by experience in a China war.

Naval doctrine would be no better in 1939 at ASW than OTL. Japan was little different that other navies, not thinking out throughly the implications of the German submarine ops of the Great War. Logistics would make deployment of any of the Japanese fleet slow. Like Britain and France Japan might in 1940 contract US industry/shipyards to take up the shortfall in operating its ships in the Atlantic.
 
As others have said, the key element to make this even remotely possible would be continuation of the Anglo-Japanese alliance. The problem with this is that this was part and parcel of the 1921 Washington naval disarmament treaty. Get rid of this treaty and there are all sorts of possible butterflies that might eliminate WW2 entirely . Not a WW2, necessarily, just the one that Hitler started by invading Poland in 1939. A war between the USA and Japan before 1940 would be most likely, one in which Britain was not a US ally, but more than likely a somewhat hostile neutral.

But somehow assuming there were no butterflies, I suspect Japan would find every way it could NOT to commit land forces in Europe, considering its likely concerns with China and the USSR. Also, as long as the USA was a considered the main potential enemy by the Japanese Navy (almost a certainty no matter what else happens), there would not be any substantive deployment of Japanese naval forces (BBs, CVs, CA/CLs, etc) outside Japanese home waters. And any forces that might be detatched (ASW, for example, to perhaps assist he RN in the Indian or Atlantic oceans, would be so poorly equiped as to be virtually useless - ASW was not the IJN's strong suit to say the least).
 
you might see a change in ASW in the IJN if Japan and the UK are stronger.

One thing that could happen is on a joint training mission, the RN keeps showing up the IJN on ASW, some of the higher ups do not want to lose face for the next joint training mission. The make sure that ASW training is done by the destroyer crews.
 
As others have said, the key element to make this even remotely possible would be continuation of the Anglo-Japanese alliance. The problem with this is that this was part and parcel of the 1921 Washington naval disarmament treaty. Get rid of this treaty and there are all sorts of possible butterflies that might eliminate WW2 entirely . Not a WW2, necessarily, just the one that Hitler started by invading Poland in 1939. A war between the USA and Japan before 1940 would be most likely, one in which Britain was not a US ally, but more than likely a somewhat hostile neutral.

But somehow assuming there were no butterflies, I suspect Japan would find every way it could NOT to commit land forces in Europe, considering its likely concerns with China and the USSR. Also, as long as the USA was a considered the main potential enemy by the Japanese Navy (almost a certainty no matter what else happens), there would not be any substantive deployment of Japanese naval forces (BBs, CVs, CA/CLs, etc) outside Japanese home waters. And any forces that might be detatched (ASW, for example, to perhaps assist he RN in the Indian or Atlantic oceans, would be so poorly equiped as to be virtually useless - ASW was not the IJN's strong suit to say the least).
The UK is NOT going pick japan over the US as an ally. Otoh, theres no need for japan and the US to be enenies. The US isnt interested in expanding territory, in fact it was going to give the philippines their independence.
 
Also, as long as the USA was a considered the main potential enemy by the Japanese Navy (almost a certainty no matter what else happens), there would not be any substantive deployment of Japanese naval forces (BBs, CVs, CA/CLs, etc) outside Japanese home waters.

Really?

A much stronger Soviet Union that somehow has a smaller civil war because the Red Army is stronger, under a Trotsky or some army general, which goes expansionist might make Japan think the Soviets have become more threatening than the US. The USA has gone into another bout of isolationism, and so looking at the two points here: an inactive USA that won't awake soon, and a threatening power at their border (Japanese Manchuria), might cause the UK to rethink their dismantling of the treaty.
 
Discussed this in the afternoon over our gameboard & coffee. Most interesting thing that came up was a IJN carrier in the Med making a suprise attack on Italian warships in port ;)
 
-UK keeps ties to Japan following takeover of Manchuria and offers them oil out of Arabia

-Japan decides to try to gain oil from multiple sources instead of just USA and believes treaty with UK will help if USA is a problem

-No Marco Polo Bridge incident, no rape of Nanking, but plenty of Japan playing warlords off of each other, especially in Southern China/Guangzhou/ Shanghai areas

-French Indochina falls under Japanese "management" and is leased out until war's end

-UK calls on Japan for help, Taranto is destroyed entirely by a combined UK/IJN task force. Japan amasses troops in Egypt and naval forces make El Alamein really interesting. German forces whelp the Imperial land forces, but air superiority goes to Japan with precision bombing. Naval dominance crushes German positions as if they were cardboard. Army forces realize that without some sort of tank force they are outclassed in large-scale battles and borrow older British designs.

-Japanese ground forces are instrumental in cleaning up North Africa and naval forces cut off retreating Germans at Tunisia, leading to over 250,000 surrendering Germans the day USA enters the war. German war material is sent home to Tokyo for analysis and testing.

-Japanese landings in Sicily, now backed by British tanks, take the islands quickly. Greener American troops land in Italy and get trounced but are saved by Japanese assistance in Calabria.

-By war's end in 1944 the Japanese are producing tank prototypes roughly equivalent to the Pershing of OTL and early jet designs. Small arms are upgraded to an M1 knockoff though the Stg44 will soon "inspire" new designs as well. Her industial capacity and shipping are improved from 1941 and her relationship with the UK continues to prove valuable, as a reward Japan is given an occupation zone in the Rhine which she strips of talent and industrial equipment before combining with the American, French, and British zones to make Western Germany in 1946.

-Japan also cleans Communist influence in China after the war and sets up a puppet state in the South (Shanghai), one in the Center (Chongqing), one in the northeast (Beijing), and one in the northwest (Urumqi). It also sets up its Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere under the guise of decolonization but uses economics instead of direct occupation as a means of control. Her navy is the third largest in the world and her technology, military, and overall industrial capacity are greatly improved by involvement with the Allies.
 
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