Challenge: A United Hapsburg Empire

[Jimbrock]

There has been a rather large upsurge of Charles V threads recently, each discussing alternate divisions of this and that, which bits go to Austria, to Spain, new countries forming in Burgundy, etc. This got me wondering, why didnt Charles keep his massive empire intact, by not partitioning it?

The most obvious reasons I assume will be the huge cultural as well as geographical disparity between his different realms, and that Charles was so pained by gout, deformities, epilepsia and the rest that he could not have enough time and energy to increase and maintain his empire on his own. So, the way I see it, there are two ways to tackle this challenge, in one Charles somehow goes on, despite his physical ailments, perhaps devolving the seperate provinces of the empire but keeping a figurehead role quietly in a palace somewhere, while the other is much more difficult but then much more interesting and exciting.

Could he have given his whole Empire to one successor, probably Phillip, and keep the empire together by Personal Union, and lead the way to a possible United Hapsburg Empire? Is this at all plausible, or is it ASB? What PoD/s will be nessescary? If this can come to pass, what will be the effects and ramifications of this in the short and long term? An inevitable succession war? The dreaded Universal European Empire?

Thoughts?

 

[Janprimus]

Well Ferdinand already came to rule the Austrian Hereditary Lands (Austria, Styria, Carinthia, Carniola, Tyrol..) in 1521. And the way Charles V had to rule his empire, Charles V, basically was almost always travelling, shows that there wasn't a desire in those possessions to centralize and that available means of communication were far from perfect. So it will be hard to keep the Habsburg Empire intact, although a very easy way would be that either Charles or Ferdinand dies childless.

 

[ImperialVienna]

Jimbrock, you know if anyone, I would find a way to to maintain united Habsburg Monarchy. The problem is even the Habsburgs of the time knew that maintenance of the Universal Monarchy was impossible. Even if Ferdinand is some how circumvented (say death before he has issue), Philip II would likely just split his realms, and if not Philip II (because he only has one son and doesn't want it to pass a daughter and son-in-law for whatever reason) then certainly Philip III would. Perhaps a later PoD during or before the War of Spanish Succession could cause the temporary reunification under Charles VI/III, however I have a feeling he would have his realms divided between his two daughters.

Based on these proposals I would like to propose a Theory of AH:
Habsburg Dominance can only be maintained by Dynastic Division.

 

[Jimbrock]

Jimbrock, you know if anyone, I would find a way to to maintain united Habsburg Monarchy. The problem is even the Habsburgs of the time knew that maintenance of the Universal Monarchy was impossible. Even if Ferdinand is some how circumvented (say death before he has issue), Philip II would likely just split his realms, and if not Philip II (because he only has one son and doesn't want it to pass a daughter and son-in-law for whatever reason) then certainly Philip III would. Perhaps a later PoD during or before the War of Spanish Succession could cause the temporary reunification under Charles VI/III, however I have a feeling he would have his realms divided between his two daughters.

Based on these proposals I would like to propose a Theory of AH:
Habsburg Dominance can only be maintained by Dynastic Division.

Yes, I knew you would pop up in this thread.
But, as you are probably the one who can explain it best, why cant the extensive Hapsburg empire be kept together in at least Personal union? If none of the successors can keep it together, how could physically ailed Charles do it?

 

[ImperialVienna]

Partly because of Charles' personal presence but more importantly because everyone knew he was the only one who was going reign "universally". Lets look at Charles' life:

He was born in Ghent and raised in the Burgundian Netherlands. This engendered a deep loyalty to him personally among the Nobility because he was one of them, having spoken French and Dutch fluently from birth.

His succession to his family's various thrones was not decided by tradition alone, that is to say, even though he was the first born of Philip the Handsome and Joan the Mad, his succession, particularly in Aragon (but to a lesser extent Castile) was ensured because of negotiations between Maximilian I and Ferdinand II and Ferdinand's failure to produce an heir with Germaine of Foix. Part of those negotiations were that Ferdinand, Charles' brother, inherit Austria and the Imperial Title upon his death. Had this not been agreed upon, I firmly believe Ferdinand II would have pushed for and likely succeeded in having his Spanish grandson installed by the Castilian and Aragonese Corteses instead of Charles.

Charles was only really ever in Germany in 1520 into 1521 for his election and the Diet of Worms. Starting in about the mid 1520s Ferdinand was his Regent/Viceroy, whatever you want to call it, but pursued a very independent course(focused in Hungary), albeit one inline with Dynastic interests. Especially after Ferdinand's elections as King of the Romans and King of Bohemia, Charles was Holy Roman Emperor literally in title only.

As for Charles in Spain, while he spent much of his life speaking Spanish, by most accounts he was never terribly good at it. However Maximilian and Ferdinand had shifted the core territories of his line to Spain and Philip II, spoke only Spanish and was a stark contrast to his polyglot father.

The final thing I want to note is that Charles did not hold his thrones until death, but rather abdicated in 1556 (something that would not happen again until 1848). I bring this up to reinforce my first point about the Dutch. When Charles assembled the Estates General to announce his abdication, he was physically supported during his speech not by his dynastic successor, Philip II of Spain, but by William of Orange, the man who would lead the forces against his son.

(so now that I've given a condensed version of the paper I'm suppose to be writing for College... back to my main point)

Charles was able to rule universally because there was never any intention for that union to continue into perpetuity and because of loyalties to his person. Before he had even assumed most of his thrones, Maximilian and Ferdinand had divided his inheritance between their respective favored grandsons, with the understanding that Charles would have to inherit everything at first largely so they didn't break with tradition. Loyalty to Charles was not always directly extended to his son. When Charles attempted to install Philip as Ferdinand's successor to the Imperial Throne, both the electors and Ferdinand himself balked at the idea. Similarly Philip II was largely hated in the Burgundian Netherlands.

The Habsburgs themselves never intended for a Universal Empire to be created. Even though Charles would have liked to see Philip take the Imperial throne, he still acknowledged that Austria was Ferdinand's. Both Charles and Philip considered splitting off the Burgundian Inheritance, with Philip going so far as to actually make Archduke Albrecht and Isabella Co-Sovereigns, and decreeing that the Netherlands would only return to the Spanish Crown in the event that he failed to produce surviving issue (which they did).

So basically Charles V was an anomaly in history.

Ivy's Note: I ignored Milan, because quite frankly I feel that Italy during this period was basically a Habsburg-Valois clusterfuck, and I didn't want to deal with it (more so than the Burgundian Inheritance).

Ivy's Secondary Note: Jimbrock I'm gonna smack you if you keep spelling "Habsburg" "Hapsburg"

 

[Falastur]

I'm surprised that no-one here has mentioned Philip II's designs on the Empire. When Charles was beginning to divide up his empire, Philip was unhappy that his uncle (Ferdinand, Charles' brother) was given Austria and so persuaded Charles to sign over Austria and the Imperial seat to Ferdinand on the one condition that he would recognise Philip or his heir as successor on his death, to reunite the Hapsburg Empire. However, when it came down to it, Ferdinand (or rather, his son ) simply had no intention of doing so and Philip didn't press the matter, largely because in a rule of some 40-odd years, he managed to spend a whole 6 months not engaged in a war and had enough on his plate already.

 

[Janprimus]

Charles V, Philip II and the Burgundian Netherlands

About Charles V, Philip II and the Burgundian Netherlands, the main difference is that Charles V was one of them and struggled in Spain, in contrast Philip II was very Spanish and thus could never command the amount of loyalty in the Burgundian Netherlands Charles V could. There probably were some measures which might have been accepted (although not with enthusiasm) from Charles V, which were much harder to implement by Philip II.
And there also was the problem that Philip II never kept his promise to make return visits to the Burgundian Netherlands when he left for Spain in 1559, this hurt his popularity in the Estates General of the Burgundian Netherlands and this made the nobility disappointed.
This is a main difference with Charles V, who travelled a lot, but he did make return visits to the Burgundian Netherlands, although for Charles V this probably was like returning home.

 

[Jimbrock]

Ivy's Secondary Note: Jimbrock I'm gonna smack you if you keep spelling "Habsburg" "Hapsburg"

Whats wrong with the Happy Hapsburgs?

I'm surprised that no-one here has mentioned Philip II's designs on the Empire. When Charles was beginning to divide up his empire, Philip was unhappy that his uncle (Ferdinand, Charles' brother) was given Austria and so persuaded Charles to sign over Austria and the Imperial seat to Ferdinand on the one condition that he would recognise Philip or his heir as successor on his death, to reunite the Hapsburg Empire. However, when it came down to it, Ferdinand (or rather, his son ) simply had no intention of doing so and Philip didn't press the matter, largely because in a rule of some 40-odd years, he managed to spend a whole 6 months not engaged in a war and had enough on his plate already.

Fascinating. What if he did press the matter? Ivy, does this have any potential?

About Charles V, Philip II and the Burgundian Netherlands, the main difference is that Charles V was one of them and struggled in Spain, in contrast Philip II was very Spanish and thus could never command the amount of loyalty in the Burgundian Netherlands Charles V could. There probably were some measures which might have been accepted (although not with enthusiasm) from Charles V, which were much harder to implement by Philip II.
And there also was the problem that Philip II never kept his promise to make return visits to the Burgundian Netherlands when he left for Spain in 1559, this hurt his popularity in the Estates General of the Burgundian Netherlands and this made the nobility disappointed.
This is a main difference with Charles V, who travelled a lot, but he did make return visits to the Burgundian Netherlands, although for Charles V this probably was like returning home.

Also a useful PoD. What if Charles V raised Phillip to be more 'Universal', and went back on the Grandfathers decisions to not keep about the Hap(b)sburg empire?

 

[Tobit]

When Charles assembled the Estates General to announce his abdication, he was physically supported during his speech not by his dynastic successor, Philip II of Spain, but by William of Orange, the man who would lead the forces against his son.

WTF

Mind blown

please explain, what was William of Orange's position in the court? I have no idea what he did in his life before he led the Dutch wars.

 

[pompejus]

WTF

Mind blown

please explain, what was William of Orange's position in the court? I have no idea what he did in his life before he led the Dutch wars.

He was stadholder of Holland, Zeeland and Utrecht.

A stadholder was basicly the person to rule a county, duchy or principality in place of count, duke or lord, because the count, etc is also count, duke, king, etc of various other places.

 

[ImperialVienna]

Fascinating. What if he did press the matter? Ivy, does this have any potential?


Also a useful PoD. What if Charles V raised Phillip to be more 'Universal', and went back on the Grandfathers decisions to not keep about the Hap(b)sburg empire?

I'll address these together, I was aware of Philip II's designs on reuniting the Hereditary Habsburg territories, however I didn't know that he had successfully pressed Charles V in that direction. To my knowledge, Charles V's desire to install Philip as HRE wasn't motivated by Philip, but more because the Imperial Title hadn't been explicitly promised to Ferdinand's line by Maximilian, because quite frankly he technically couldn't make that promise(as the throne was elective), and so there was a bit of a loop hole. Regardless, Austria was explicitly promised to Ferdinand's line, there was nothing Charles could really do about it, especially as he had handed it over in the 1520s (IIRC).

Charles could try to go back on his Grandfathers' decision, but it would backfire massively for him(well not so much for him, but for Philip II). As we've stated, he did attempt to get Philip the Imperial Throne at the end of his reign, and the Electors basically told him to go to Hell. Ferdinand, though a Spanish Prince, spoke German, was an Elector himself, had a power base in Austria-Bohemia-Hungary. If Charles/Philip were to press the issue then we would see a massive Dynastic Split. Ferdinand will become HRE no matter what, all the Spanish Gold in the World can't stop that. If it comes to blows, it's going to be likely all of Germany (or at least all the major players in Germany) vs. the Spanish. While neither side of the family can really afford this, I think the Spanish branch had much more to lose. I could easily see the Spaniards being kicked out of the Netherlands and replaced by the Austrians, especially as Ferdinand (later in life) and Maximilian were sympathetic to Protestantism (Ferdinand refused last rights on his death bed). The Austrians could probably buy France off with promises of Milan and Franche-Comté. I think this would likely result in the Austrian Habsburgs becoming Protestants because I'm sure the Pope would side with Philip, but that's purely conjecture.

WTF

Mind blown

please explain, what was William of Orange's position in the court? I have no idea what he did in his life before he led the Dutch wars.

William of Orange was a member of the Order of the Golden Fleece, which the Habsburgs serve/d as Masters of. I must apologize, I simplified events, because I was in a bit of a hurry toward the end there. Charles leaned on William of Orange when he abdicated his position of Grand Master of the Order(which was, I would argue, the most important of the Habsburgs' Burgundian Titles), three days later, he formally abdicated before the Estates General, during which he was seated. The actual events themselves (which were both multiple days long and were held in the same Hall) kind of mesh because many members of the Order were in the Estates General and vice versa.

 

[Gonzaga]

I'm surprised that no-one here has mentioned Philip II's designs on the Empire. When Charles was beginning to divide up his empire, Philip was unhappy that his uncle (Ferdinand, Charles' brother) was given Austria and so persuaded Charles to sign over Austria and the Imperial seat to Ferdinand on the one condition that he would recognise Philip or his heir as successor on his death, to reunite the Hapsburg Empire. However, when it came down to it, Ferdinand (or rather, his son ) simply had no intention of doing so and Philip didn't press the matter, largely because in a rule of some 40-odd years, he managed to spend a whole 6 months not engaged in a war and had enough on his plate already.

That would be an interesting TL to see. A conflict between the two branches over Austria, and the Habsburgs lands united under Philip, while Ferdinand's line gets the Imperial mantle but only rule over the Jagiellon inheritance (Hungary and Bohemia).

 

[Jimbrock]

I'll address these together, I was aware of Philip II's designs on reuniting the Hereditary Habsburg territories, however I didn't know that he had successfully pressed Charles V in that direction. To my knowledge, Charles V's desire to install Philip as HRE wasn't motivated by Philip, but more because the Imperial Title hadn't been explicitly promised to Ferdinand's line by Maximilian, because quite frankly he technically couldn't make that promise(as the throne was elective), and so there was a bit of a loop hole. Regardless, Austria was explicitly promised to Ferdinand's line, there was nothing Charles could really do about it, especially as he had handed it over in the 1520s (IIRC).

Charles could try to go back on his Grandfathers' decision, but it would backfire massively for him(well not so much for him, but for Philip II). As we've stated, he did attempt to get Philip the Imperial Throne at the end of his reign, and the Electors basically told him to go to Hell. Ferdinand, though a Spanish Prince, spoke German, was an Elector himself, had a power base in Austria-Bohemia-Hungary. If Charles/Philip were to press the issue then we would see a massive Dynastic Split. Ferdinand will become HRE no matter what, all the Spanish Gold in the World can't stop that. If it comes to blows, it's going to be likely all of Germany (or at least all the major players in Germany) vs. the Spanish. While neither side of the family can really afford this, I think the Spanish branch had much more to lose. I could easily see the Spaniards being kicked out of the Netherlands and replaced by the Austrians, especially as Ferdinand (later in life) and Maximilian were sympathetic to Protestantism (Ferdinand refused last rights on his death bed). The Austrians could probably buy France off with promises of Milan and Franche-Comté. I think this would likely result in the Austrian Habsburgs becoming Protestants because I'm sure the Pope would side with Philip, but that's purely conjecture.

I see. Could we take it to a stetch, and have Ferdinand himelf reunite them, in reverse? Austrian Spain?