Challenge: A Three (or More)-Way Space Race

Challenge: Starting with a POD no earlier than January 1937, come up with a 1950s/1960s space race involving at least three powers making serious and sustained efforts to do the whole panoply of space efforts: sending satellites, orbiting astronauts, and seriously planning to send men to the moon. Bonus points if one of the powers involved is not a Western (Europe of the US) country.
 
Well if you have Hitler die and end up with a militarist government in Germany then you could have Soviet/German/US race.

If Mao decides to focus on Space as part of the Great Leap concept, perhaps they rival USSR for space program.
 
Well if you have Hitler die and end up with a militarist government in Germany then you could have Soviet/German/US race.

If Mao decides to focus on Space as part of the Great Leap concept, perhaps they rival USSR for space program.

Having a more gradual militarization of Germany rather than a reckless lurch to war might do it. The Great Leap Forward--I'm skeptical of that putting together a space program. A more rational Chinese leadership might build up to the point where they could do a space program.
 
With a very different WWII, or a very different outcome that left the Empire of Japan and the Third Reich intact, I think Germany or Japan would be the most likely players to enter the space race. They would have the industrial base and the type of scientific establishment to launch rockets, but funding would of course be rather hard to come by.

France is a possibilty, particularly if the post-WWII leadership decides to focus its energies for restoring national honor away from retaining its colonies.

Great Britain: Possible, but unlikely. Maybe a pan-commonwealth effort (Australia, Canada, South Africa help foot the bill, provide a launch site).

With ANY 1937 POD I think China is the least likely. The country is was so vast, ungoverned and undeveloped that space travel would have to take the back seat to some other priority. Especially with a nationalist government, imagine what percentage of their GDP would have gone to maintaining a large enough military to withstand communists within and without.
 
The Chinese did in fact try to compete in the space race, with plans for a manned spacecraft before 1970. Completely outside their means, of course.

Without the war breaking them as Great Powers, France, the UK, and Germany are very likely to be players. Japan is somewhat behind, but still likely. Even Italy could get involved-launching from Somaliland, say. The USSR is all but certain to be a player, as it had a strong aviation tradition and the second-best rocketry program. The US, I think, would jump in late (Americans just never seem to get the value of it).
 
The British Empire federalizes, thus becoming a third pole in the Cold War? Starts up it's own space program as a result?
 
Great Britain: Possible, but unlikely. Maybe a pan-commonwealth effort (Australia, Canada, South Africa help foot the bill, provide a launch site
I'm not sure to what extent a British space effort would involve Commonwealth backing in terms of finance, manpower and resources, but it would involve some level of involvement - we tested our nuclear bombs in Australia, so I imagine they or the Canadians would be willing to provide test and launch sites.
 
Post WWII IOTL France made a huge push to be considered a major nuclear power - take a look at the number of nuclear tests they did vs. the other nuclear powers and you'll see what I mean. Presumably this was largely for national prestige since they couldn't really believe after WWI and WWII that the US would fail to defend them in a hypothetical WWIII.

Let's say instead they choose space as their prestige project. The French seem to have been pretty good on the rocket/missile technology front IOTL (Ariane, etc.) especially if they draw some support from the other Euro powers. I think the US is still likely to reach the moon first, but a three-way race might create a perceived benefit from getting there second, which could prolong the race and even put 'first to Mars' on the table.

You might see the Soviets claiming they were the best because they put the first man in orbit, the US claiming they were the best because they put the first man on the moon, and the French claiming they were the best because they put the first woman on Mars. :)
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Post WWII IOTL France made a huge push to be considered a major nuclear power - take a look at the number of nuclear tests they did vs. the other nuclear powers and you'll see what I mean. Presumably this was largely for national prestige since they couldn't really believe after WWI and WWII that the US would fail to defend them in a hypothetical WWIII.

Let's say instead they choose space as their prestige project. The French seem to have been pretty good on the rocket/missile technology front IOTL (Ariane, etc.) especially if they draw some support from the other Euro powers. I think the US is still likely to reach the moon first, but a three-way race might create a perceived benefit from getting there second, which could prolong the race and even put 'first to Mars' on the table.

You might see the Soviets claiming they were the best because they put the first man in orbit, the US claiming they were the best because they put the first man on the moon, and the French claiming they were the best because they put the first woman on Mars. :)

Makes sense. IOTL, France was the third power to independently orbit a satellite. And they do have what may be the world's best launch facility in French Guiana, whose proximity to the equator gives it a distinct advantage.
 
Okay. Let's say France is able to build up their space capabilities a little faster--maybe they somehow avoid or minimize the impact of the draining conflicts in IndoChina and then Algeria. So the Soviets send something to orbit and the US and French are both not far behind. Ditto with the first man to orbit. France is determined to put up the markers of a serious player in the space race. They put together programs for a space station and a lunar program. What happens then?

I wonder if France would support the idea of space as common heritage of mankind if they were close to getting significant places out there.
 
What happens then?

I think it depends on how much backing they get from the rest of Europe. On their own, they probably can't pay for a program beyond a token moonshot, and even that might be pushing it. If they can rope in the UK, Germany, etc. as serious partners and keep the political aspects in check a space station would certainly be in the cards. With that as a base and some serious political pressure I don't think it would be ASB to have a single Mars mission. That's a lot of "ifs" of course. :-}

I wonder if France would support the idea of space as common heritage of mankind if they were close to getting significant places out there.

Depends on whether they think there's anything beyond prestige to be gained Out There. If they do, not a chance. If they don't, why not? It plays well with the UN.
 

Archibald

Banned
France would need a powerful first stage rapidly. First a cluster of twelve Valois - Diamant engine - would result in a medium lift vehicle.
The real solution, however, is the Viking. Nine Viking - kind of Ariane 44L - five on first stage, four podded.
Big problem is the cryogenic second stage - no Vulcain until the 90's.
Perhaps a fatter second stage with more Viking.
The resulting rocket would be very much a scaled-up Ariane 4. Three or four launchers of this kind could allow a lunar landing.
 
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