I just want to see what people can come up with for what was historically the ultimate Catholic stronghold to be...not Catholic. POD 1517.
Challenge: A Protestant Italy
- Thread starter Snowstalker
- Start date
Something that can turn the First Siege of Vienna into Ottoman victory ?
Because, had the Ottomans won the siege, RCC's position in Germany will be in a great peril.....
Because, had the Ottomans won the siege, RCC's position in Germany will be in a great peril.....
I always wondered why this didn't happen. Of all the north Italian states, only Venice was strong enough not to have to play Pope and Emperor against each other. Plus, they had a lot of conflicts with the Pope - including a time when the Doge was excommunicated, and made Venetian clerics continue to issue Communion. That's almost a schism right there, isn't it?
It depends on what you're going for.
If you mean have the majority of Italians being Protestant, it's possible, difficult, but possible.
However, if you mean having all, or nearly all of the Italian peninsula being Protestant, well that I think would require the near destruction
of the Catholic Church and Institution, which honestly would lead to a situation where Protestantism ITTL may be a completely different
entity than IOTL.
If you mean have the majority of Italians being Protestant, it's possible, difficult, but possible.
However, if you mean having all, or nearly all of the Italian peninsula being Protestant, well that I think would require the near destruction
of the Catholic Church and Institution, which honestly would lead to a situation where Protestantism ITTL may be a completely different
entity than IOTL.
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If Girolamo Savonarola does not get deposed and executed in 1498 Florence could, excommunicated by the pope and dissatisfied with Savonarola turn to lutheranism as sign of opposition against Rome and the leaders of the republic.
However an eventual rise of a protestant leadership would lead to instant war with the rest of the citystates esp. Rome and the Hapsburg Empire and/or France.
You need Venice or Milan as well to support Florence. Milan would be the better option, if you let the Swiss Mercenaries win against Francis I. Have the Swizz reformed Church be very early a hugh success among the mercenaries and the people of Milan.
They might have a slim chance to survive a Hapsburg, French, Rome alliance and there would be a protestant North/Middle Italy.
However an eventual rise of a protestant leadership would lead to instant war with the rest of the citystates esp. Rome and the Hapsburg Empire and/or France.
You need Venice or Milan as well to support Florence. Milan would be the better option, if you let the Swiss Mercenaries win against Francis I. Have the Swizz reformed Church be very early a hugh success among the mercenaries and the people of Milan.
They might have a slim chance to survive a Hapsburg, French, Rome alliance and there would be a protestant North/Middle Italy.
A predominantly Lutheran Germany will surely help to pave the way for Lutheranism into Italy.
If the first siege of Vienna by Ottomans were successful, the position of Roman Catholicism in Germany, and actually overall Europe, will face a great trouble, should be enough to make Lutheranism dominating Germany in at least moderate term, and then make its way into Italy.
In a nutshell:
France and HRE go Protestant -> Northern Italy goes Protestant.
One of them or both sack Rome (obviously, at different times), Pope flees to Spain. Papal states fall to HRE or France or are divided.
A few religious wars later, Spain loses Naples to France or HRE/Austria. Italy becomes majority Protestant.
France and HRE go Protestant -> Northern Italy goes Protestant.
One of them or both sack Rome (obviously, at different times), Pope flees to Spain. Papal states fall to HRE or France or are divided.
A few religious wars later, Spain loses Naples to France or HRE/Austria. Italy becomes majority Protestant.
Though if the protestant HRE becomes to cohesive and powerful, the French might want to stick with Catholicism.
That also depends on the preceding situation before the decision making though. And indeed Catholicism will be weaker and all.....
Possible, although the fact that the Habsburgs were Catholic didn't make France embrace Protestantism IOTL. France & HRE can be rivals even if they share a religion. Or make France Calvinist and the HRE Lutheran and they can find good religious justifications to fight.
Or make France Calvinist and the HRE Lutheran and they can find good religious justifications to fight.
Exactly my thought
It was the prevalent Protestanism there anyway, wasn't it ?A sucessful siege of Vienna would not bring the required change IMO as Ferdinand would get it back a few months later with the help of Venice, Rome and most of all his brother Charles - who had experienced troops in Cambria and Barcelona.
It might actually turn worse for the Ottomans as there is a good chance that a Hapsburg, Venice, Rome alliance could go on the conquer Hungary back to which Ferdinand had a claim.
The bulk of the Ottoman troops were on the other side of the Empire fighting against Persia - thats why they didn't try to take Vienna again in 1530.
This "crusade" might actually strenghten the RCC.
Vienna would not be the culture centre it was as the capital of Hapsburg Germany would be moved to Prague and stay there.
In time this could lead to a protestant Hapsburg as Bohemia turned Lutheran during the 16th century.
But as the POD is requested for 1517 this would be to late to help Italian citystates turning protestant.
Exactly my thought
Yep, that's why I proposed that combination.
Savronola definitely wanted to reform the church, and during his term as leader of the republic of Florence probably said as nasty things about the pope as the early Luther. If not worse, but I think he was too much of a millenarian spasm of reformist thinking in the Church. Not to mention he was before the POD though it might work if there was successor who would uphold Savronolanism.
I dunno. On how can that be able to turn things worse for Ottomans, that will depend on how much intact Vienna would be after the Ottomans capture it. If Vienna would be to much devastated, most likely they will then just pack and leave, to then strengthen their position in Hungary. Indeed, if Ottomans will be staying in Vienna to long, the Protestants will might become even more uneasy about them, but that won't be very likely, and either way, the balance of Protestanism-Catholicim in Germany has just been significantly shifted at minimal, because the Habsburg domains in HRE has just been clearly screwed.
I would agree though that a Protestant Italy would then take a long shot from this point on.
What about a 1870 POD?
After all the kingdom of italy was at war with the Pope's state, and the king was actively anti-clerical.
I think he would have smiled upon a Reformed Italian Church Anglican-style, with the king (or a patriarch appointed by the king) instead of the pope as an head figure
After all the kingdom of italy was at war with the Pope's state, and the king was actively anti-clerical.
I think he would have smiled upon a Reformed Italian Church Anglican-style, with the king (or a patriarch appointed by the king) instead of the pope as an head figure