Just to throw something out there. While this timeline wouldn't exactly create great drama, what would be some points of divergence that would have averted the disasters of the 20th century?
Challenge: A pastoral 20th century
- Thread starter JimmyJimJam
- Start date
Pre GW [Edwarian Age] You could travel from London to Moscow, or Istanbul on smooth RRs without needing a passport, Science was about to solve all Problems, Intra European Trade Was Booming. Then came the GW.
International Travel and Trade collaspes, Million of Young Men are Killed, Science Betrays Humanity with Poison Gas, When the World came out of the Abyss, International Tension, lead to Supusion between Nations, Passports and travel Papers ect.
So the first thing is get rid of the Tensions that lead up to the great War.
International Travel and Trade collaspes, Million of Young Men are Killed, Science Betrays Humanity with Poison Gas, When the World came out of the Abyss, International Tension, lead to Supusion between Nations, Passports and travel Papers ect.
So the first thing is get rid of the Tensions that lead up to the great War.
Great, but how do we do that in a believable fashion which relieves the tensions that had been building in Europe for 50 odd years?
How about this?
In 1887, Buffalo Bill Cody's Wild West Show went to Berlin after being presented to Queen Victoria. She shot the ashes off of a cigar held in someone's mouth, one of her more famous tricks, and then Crown Prince Wilhelm, later Kaiser Wilhelm II, hopped into the performance area and insisted that Oakley shoot the ashes off of his cigarette. In OTL, she managed to do the trick without harming Wilhelm. However, she admitted that she had had more than a few drinks the night before and was a bit nervous performing her trick with Wilhelm. What if when she made the shot she instead hit Wilhelm in the head and killed him? It's been said that Kaiser Wilhelm is the one individual who really contributed to the growing tensions in Europe and drove a wedge between Germany and Britain.
In 1887, Buffalo Bill Cody's Wild West Show went to Berlin after being presented to Queen Victoria. She shot the ashes off of a cigar held in someone's mouth, one of her more famous tricks, and then Crown Prince Wilhelm, later Kaiser Wilhelm II, hopped into the performance area and insisted that Oakley shoot the ashes off of his cigarette. In OTL, she managed to do the trick without harming Wilhelm. However, she admitted that she had had more than a few drinks the night before and was a bit nervous performing her trick with Wilhelm. What if when she made the shot she instead hit Wilhelm in the head and killed him? It's been said that Kaiser Wilhelm is the one individual who really contributed to the growing tensions in Europe and drove a wedge between Germany and Britain.
It's pretty clear we need to stop WWI in its tracks for that to happen.
Now, I'm an advocate of a cultural POD for this (I wrote an ATL once where Rousseau dies early, therefore the Romantic Movement doesn't really happen and the whole Nationalism thing pretty much dies in infancy, leading to a world where Benthamite Utilitarianism is the accepted mainstream philosophy). However, if you're looking for political PODs:
- Danish War more costly. As Bund troops enter denmark, they are quickly bogged down in a long drawn-out slogging match. It takes months to reduce the Danewerk. Dueppel sees entire Prussian regiments bleed to death. By the time Denmark surrenders Schleswig-Holstein, borth Austria and Prussia are somewhat shell-shocked and need long years to recover their military strength and absoerb the lessons. Thus, the time window of 1866-70 passes unused and when Prussia goes looking for trouble again, the Austrians are finished arming their troopsa with breechloaders and reorganising their terrifying artillery (they may even develop the doctrine the Prussians used in 1870/71). End result: no Prussian-dominated Germany, France continues in unquestioned great-power status, and Prussia and Austria become Germany's balance of power. (There's still going to be hell to pay in the Balkans, but at least we can keep Prussia, Franbce and Britainout of it when Austria takes its doomed stand against the Russian-backed Panslavists.
- France trounces the Prussians, either in 1866 (quite likely) or in 1870 (unlikely, but still slightly possible if the generals hadn't been so b***y stoopid). This could lead to plenty of resentment, but it would see to it that WWI can't get off the ground. Prussia stays a second-tier power and France continues to dominate western Germany.
- Shock and awe, 1914. As casualties mount to unsustainable levels quickly, all combatants tentatively seek a status-quo-ante settlement. ATL, this is reached. Burned by the experience (and threatened by popular resentment once the people see how many men died effectively for nothing - well, OK, for a few border revisions in Serbia and new Neutrality guarantees for Belgium), the continent settles into a slowly thawing cold war. Bythe time the great powers think of having at each other again, Russia has begun to disintegrate, the Balkans are on fire and everyone has different problems.
- I don't know how likely this outcome would have bneen, but an Anglo-German entente in the 1890s could have rendered WWI impossible by wedging France in between potential enemies and marginalising Russia.Of course, that would require removing everyone's favorite eejit, the Kaiser, or at least Tirpitz and his gang, which brings us back to Buffalo Bill...
Now, I'm an advocate of a cultural POD for this (I wrote an ATL once where Rousseau dies early, therefore the Romantic Movement doesn't really happen and the whole Nationalism thing pretty much dies in infancy, leading to a world where Benthamite Utilitarianism is the accepted mainstream philosophy). However, if you're looking for political PODs:
- Danish War more costly. As Bund troops enter denmark, they are quickly bogged down in a long drawn-out slogging match. It takes months to reduce the Danewerk. Dueppel sees entire Prussian regiments bleed to death. By the time Denmark surrenders Schleswig-Holstein, borth Austria and Prussia are somewhat shell-shocked and need long years to recover their military strength and absoerb the lessons. Thus, the time window of 1866-70 passes unused and when Prussia goes looking for trouble again, the Austrians are finished arming their troopsa with breechloaders and reorganising their terrifying artillery (they may even develop the doctrine the Prussians used in 1870/71). End result: no Prussian-dominated Germany, France continues in unquestioned great-power status, and Prussia and Austria become Germany's balance of power. (There's still going to be hell to pay in the Balkans, but at least we can keep Prussia, Franbce and Britainout of it when Austria takes its doomed stand against the Russian-backed Panslavists.
- France trounces the Prussians, either in 1866 (quite likely) or in 1870 (unlikely, but still slightly possible if the generals hadn't been so b***y stoopid). This could lead to plenty of resentment, but it would see to it that WWI can't get off the ground. Prussia stays a second-tier power and France continues to dominate western Germany.
- Shock and awe, 1914. As casualties mount to unsustainable levels quickly, all combatants tentatively seek a status-quo-ante settlement. ATL, this is reached. Burned by the experience (and threatened by popular resentment once the people see how many men died effectively for nothing - well, OK, for a few border revisions in Serbia and new Neutrality guarantees for Belgium), the continent settles into a slowly thawing cold war. Bythe time the great powers think of having at each other again, Russia has begun to disintegrate, the Balkans are on fire and everyone has different problems.
- I don't know how likely this outcome would have bneen, but an Anglo-German entente in the 1890s could have rendered WWI impossible by wedging France in between potential enemies and marginalising Russia.Of course, that would require removing everyone's favorite eejit, the Kaiser, or at least Tirpitz and his gang, which brings us back to Buffalo Bill...
I remember a book by carl amery dealing with the prussian-austrian war in 1866. A bavarian administrative accidantly invites a regiment of american freelance soldiers with the first maschine guns. this way austria wins the war, but the free minded influence of the cowboyllike americans makes the germans more relaxed. The book end with the king of bavaria happily insane and beeing trapped in his own mountain refuge. At the same time the people of bavaria start a republic. (The story is more likely than it sounds!! a highly recommendable book)
This way no agressive Germany, mayby no WW I.
Problem ar e the colonies, which were to be supressed much longer without WW I and II.
This way no agressive Germany, mayby no WW I.
Problem ar e the colonies, which were to be supressed much longer without WW I and II.
Perhaps if Napoleon III doesn't get involved in his Mexican adventure but instead remains focused on Europe. In 1866 France intervenes on the side of Austria and her German allies, and the combined forces overwhelm the Prussians in spite of the Prussian forces having better weapons. Of course, that might just lead to a situation where France and Austria face a hostile Russia alliance of Russia and Prussia at some point in the future ...
Perhaps if Germany sticks to Bismarck's policy of trying to keep Russia and Austria from clashing too often while isolating France and keeping a friendly stance toward Great Britain?
Perhaps if Germany sticks to Bismarck's policy of trying to keep Russia and Austria from clashing too often while isolating France and keeping a friendly stance toward Great Britain?
Grey Wolf
Donor
GBW said:Is it? Whether it is or not, the absence of Wilhelm II might have averted a lot of needless tensions in Europe. Who would have become Kaiser if Wilhelm had been killed by Annie Oakley?
Crown Prince (Friedrich) Wilhelm was born in 1882, the sources I can find on Phoebe say she shot the Kaiser's ash off in c 1889, so you have a regency presumably headed by the Kaiser's brother, though his cousins may also come into the equation
Grey Wolf
Straha
Banned
have european colonies in a very important poart of the world fave conquest by a horrifically powerful and brutal enemy. An example of this will be shown in the late 19th centruy of my Draka TL when european lands in north and west africa beging to be taken in a lightning war by the Draka. The wars last from the 1880's to about 1909, the resulting attitude in europe is one of self preservation and not letting europe fall so the resources of europe are more turned towards investing in the ottomans to serve as a bulwark against Drakan attacks. The rersources are also used in developing the colonies. All isn't peaceful as the ottoman victory over austria-hungary and the resultign addition of much of the balkans to the ottomans shows. The 1910's and 20's pass by mostly peacefully wiyth few war scares....
Bismarck dies early, and is never prominent.
Frederick William IV, (1795-1861), reigned 1840-1861
William I, (1797-1888), reigned 1861-1888
Frederick III, (1831-1888), reigned 1888
When Frederick William IV dies, William I is getting old, and maybe he gets the flu; so Frederick III gets the throne, and without Bismarck's influence, Prussian militarism isn't so strong.
With different generals on both sides, Austria wins the Austro-Prussian War, and Austria can fund the castles being built by Ludwig III of Bavaria. His fourth castle, Falkenburg, is built and becomes a center for science and technology, run by Nicola Tesla.
Frederick III dies in 1888, and his heir is somebody who wasn't born in OTL; William Frederick I, 1870-1949, is influential in the forming of the League of Nations. He encourages Jews to emigrate to new nation-states in Palestine, Uganda, Alaska and Tahiti. Without Lord Balfour, the British help the Jews and Arabs form a combined nation without the petty bickering.
William Frederick II, born 1898, encourages the development of the European Space Agency. In response, the US President, Nigel Straha, encourages private enterprise to compete with the Europeans in space.
Hitler's parents never met; Stalin's parents divorced early, Lenin's mom caught his dad in bed with a mistress and killed him before Lenin was born; Trotsky became an evangelist, Mao Tse-tung's parents married other people.
Frederick William IV, (1795-1861), reigned 1840-1861
William I, (1797-1888), reigned 1861-1888
Frederick III, (1831-1888), reigned 1888
When Frederick William IV dies, William I is getting old, and maybe he gets the flu; so Frederick III gets the throne, and without Bismarck's influence, Prussian militarism isn't so strong.
With different generals on both sides, Austria wins the Austro-Prussian War, and Austria can fund the castles being built by Ludwig III of Bavaria. His fourth castle, Falkenburg, is built and becomes a center for science and technology, run by Nicola Tesla.
Frederick III dies in 1888, and his heir is somebody who wasn't born in OTL; William Frederick I, 1870-1949, is influential in the forming of the League of Nations. He encourages Jews to emigrate to new nation-states in Palestine, Uganda, Alaska and Tahiti. Without Lord Balfour, the British help the Jews and Arabs form a combined nation without the petty bickering.
William Frederick II, born 1898, encourages the development of the European Space Agency. In response, the US President, Nigel Straha, encourages private enterprise to compete with the Europeans in space.
Hitler's parents never met; Stalin's parents divorced early, Lenin's mom caught his dad in bed with a mistress and killed him before Lenin was born; Trotsky became an evangelist, Mao Tse-tung's parents married other people.
What about somehow accelerating the various conflicts of the 20th century into a short, brutal, truly "great" war that completely turns the world against war?
I would suggest two possible ways to create a POD:
1. the insurrections of 1848 are successful in France, Italy and Hungary, and are bloodily suppressed in Poland. Prince Louis Napoleon is accidentally killed in Paris. Italy becomes a liberal federation of constitutional kingdoms, Hungary becomes independent, Austria looses Lombardy and Veneto too, and becomes a constitutional monarchy, France becomes a republic, and stays so. The Italian federation and France stay closely allied, and steer European politics away from repression. In 1861 an Italian-French volunteer corps fight for the North in the ACW, and in the aftermath of victory USA, France and Italy become an informal "alliance for freedom". In TTL, Prussia will never unify Germany.
2. European Powers are brought together by an external fear (could be the "yellow peril" - an earlier and more successful Boxer insurrection -, or a Moslem raising in Central Asia, touching up India on one side and the Ottoman Empire on the other). The "Concert of Powers" become an institutionalised supra-national agency, and defuses tensions in Europe. Africa is jointly colonised, and China too. In the late XIX Century, the idea that the progress will go on and on is quite widespread, and the superiority of the Western Civilization is another pillar of European thinking. It could work. I remember reading many years ago a futuristic novel, written at the end of the XIX century and set at the end of the XX, which was predicting a world more or less like this.
Both of these POD's are quite unlikely, and not necessarily would result in a nicer XX century. However, in either case it would be quite different from OTL
1. the insurrections of 1848 are successful in France, Italy and Hungary, and are bloodily suppressed in Poland. Prince Louis Napoleon is accidentally killed in Paris. Italy becomes a liberal federation of constitutional kingdoms, Hungary becomes independent, Austria looses Lombardy and Veneto too, and becomes a constitutional monarchy, France becomes a republic, and stays so. The Italian federation and France stay closely allied, and steer European politics away from repression. In 1861 an Italian-French volunteer corps fight for the North in the ACW, and in the aftermath of victory USA, France and Italy become an informal "alliance for freedom". In TTL, Prussia will never unify Germany.
2. European Powers are brought together by an external fear (could be the "yellow peril" - an earlier and more successful Boxer insurrection -, or a Moslem raising in Central Asia, touching up India on one side and the Ottoman Empire on the other). The "Concert of Powers" become an institutionalised supra-national agency, and defuses tensions in Europe. Africa is jointly colonised, and China too. In the late XIX Century, the idea that the progress will go on and on is quite widespread, and the superiority of the Western Civilization is another pillar of European thinking. It could work. I remember reading many years ago a futuristic novel, written at the end of the XIX century and set at the end of the XX, which was predicting a world more or less like this.
Both of these POD's are quite unlikely, and not necessarily would result in a nicer XX century. However, in either case it would be quite different from OTL
I suppose the key states in germany will be Bavaria and Saxony. If the 1848 liberal revolution swings these two states, the path is clearly marked for a democratic pan-German confederation. It would be very interesting to see what would develop out of it. By the way, until the 1866 and 1870 wars, there was not a perception of the Germans as militarists. Prussia was something a bit out of mainland Germany, a bit like AH. Now in TTL with Austria sharply reduced in surface, and set on a democratic path too (a confederation of Austria, Bohemia and Slovenia, with Croatia annexed by Hungary?) Prussia would have many more difficulties in unifying the other German states behind the pan-German ideals. The Republic of France would also be a force for the good, and support the west-German states. The real risk would be an expansionist Hungary, which could set the Balkans afire. On the other hand, if Hungary is set on a democratic path too (more difficult, I always had the feeling that the insurrections in Hungary were more on the side of Hungarians magnates rather than popular raisings), you would have a wide belt of Europe firmly committed to democratic ideas. This would really set the path for a much better XX centuryAlayta said:
Max Sinister
Banned
We also could Frederick III simply live longer instead of dying from cancer. If his doctor would've been more competent...This ATL also was mentioned in the WI volume.
George Carty
Banned
I'd say get rid of Napoleon III. Almost any other French leader would have gone to war in 1866 on the Austrian side, and thus prevented the formation of a Prussian-dominated Germany. But Nappy III was ex-Carbonari and thus hated Austria as an enemy of freedom (specifically Italian freedom). He would pay the price for his irrational bias in 1870.