Challenge: A more diverse colonization of the New World

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]To end this decade/ Kick off the new one with a bang I think an interesting and expansive AH challenge is called for so here goes.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In OTL the colonization of the New World and planet in general was completed by five major powers; the English/British, the French, the Spanish, the Dutch and the Portuguese with somewhat belated entries by Germany, Japan, Russia and the United States. Your challenge if you choose to accept it is using a POD after 1350 to create a plausible scenario for having the greatest diversity of successful colonizing powers.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Points[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]OTL major colonizers (England, France, Spain)-1[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]OTL minor colonizers (Belgium, Sweden, Denmark)-2[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]OTL non-colonizing major powers (Ottomans, China, HRE)-3[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]OTL non-colonizing minor powers (Italian city states, Japan)-3[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]ATL (Novgorod, Kalmar, Byzantines)-3[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Unlikely ATL (Mali, India, weirder stuff)-4[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Plausibility 0-10 points[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Bonus points will be given out for interesting hybrid cultures (Otto-Aztecs), maps, images and general coolness.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Points will be handed out by any 'Commer who cares to.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The winner gets that warm fuzzy feeling one gets when one adds to the sum total of the universe, the accolades of his fellows.

Ready...... Go!
[/FONT]
 

Dialga

Banned
If you're talking specifically New World, then:

Various minor colonial powers (Sweden, the Netherlands) more successful in holding onto their colonies than in OTL.
A less isolationist China and Japan.
Vikings more successful in adapting to changing climates.
Russia more ambitious in exploring the West Coast.
 
How about Native Americans develop technology faster than denizens of the old world, and end up colonizing Europe, Africa, and Asia?

So you'd have Mayans taking Mali slaves in Africa, Aztecs burning europe, and Cherokees banking all of these adventures. The Incans colonizing New Zealand and Australia, etc. Basically a mirror of OTL.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
HRE are easy, you just need to keep Charles from inherite Spain, with the Habsburg centred in the Netherlands, they're going to be the main territories of the Emperor and much easier to keep in place (especially because the Habsburg are going to be more sensible to the mood there). From there we likely see something like the French possesions in the new world.

England, France, Spain, Portugal, Denmark and Sweden did have possesions in OTL, I see no reason for changes to that this POD, Italian city states could lease a few Islands from the Spain, if Spain was a little friendlier to that idea (which they may be with the greater focus on Mediterranean without their possesions in Germany, plus the Fugge colony in Venezuela was a example of them accepting it). Potential they may also set up Ecclesial states in the new world, maybe the Ottomans conquer Malta, and the Spanish give the Maltese Knights a few Caribbian islands to fund their continued conflicts with the Ottomans.
 
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Colonization might have looked a bit more diverse if the Spanish crown didn't keep a Castilian monopoly on the New World. You might have colonies founded by the Neapolitans, the Aragonese, the Dutch all over the Americas.
 
For Ottoman presence you would need to give them comfortable access towards Atlantic. If needed to be, don't let Spain unite. Keep Granada alive as a vassal of the Ottomans, then you will see an Islamic portion of Europe. While most of it would be Granadan, but Ottomans would grab some vital colonies in order to ensure their profit keeps flowing. And maybe you can even see some Ottoman settlement colonies, but it would be few at best.

In order to have Granada bought to Ottoman sphere, certainly that Ottomans would need to make Italy as a bridge rather than an obstacle, so yeah an Ottoman Italy is needed. This can may result in some Italian settlements....
 
HRE:
Note that it is hardly imaginable in legal and political terms to have colonies of the HRE as a whole, but the major entities inside could have their chance.

Valdemar's suggestion is brilliant for producing Habsburg, i.e. Austrian-Burgundian colonies. But that could also prevent Dutch independence - and thus keep the grand total of colonial powers constant. A similar effect could be produced by one of my favorites, an alternate partition of Charles' V. heritage: Just give Austria (part of) the Netherlands.


After the Thirty Years War, German colonies are highly improbable as its North Sea Coast is almost completely blocked: By the Spanish Netherlands, the independent Netherlands, Swedish Bremen-Verden, and the kin of the Danish king along the Eastern coast of the German Bight.
Nevertheless, Brandenburg-Prussia took a shot at it --- and failed; to cut a long story short, they had too little expertise for sea trade and let alone the New World.
This problem could be overcome by involvement of Hamburg, which harbors many Dutch expats at that time. The cities Hamburg and Bremen are excellent ports to be used in colonization; but the cities alone have too little ressources at their disposal; so my suggestion no. 1 would be: Let some state of the Empire - eg. Braunschweig-Lüneburg, Brandenburg-Prussia or Palatinate-Neuburg (from Jülich-Kleve-Berg), or Cologne - gain domination over one or both of these cities and start the game.
 
For Ottoman presence you would need to give them comfortable access towards Atlantic. If needed to be, don't let Spain unite. Keep Granada alive as a vassal of the Ottomans, then you will see an Islamic portion of Europe. While most of it would be Granadan, but Ottomans would grab some vital colonies in order to ensure their profit keeps flowing. And maybe you can even see some Ottoman settlement colonies, but it would be few at best.

In order to have Granada bought to Ottoman sphere, certainly that Ottomans would need to make Italy as a bridge rather than an obstacle, so yeah an Ottoman Italy is needed. This can may result in some Italian settlements....
I'm of the opinion that the Ottomans could be a good source for a more diverse New World. They have a wide collection of distinct cultures that can form colonies (Greeks, Arabs, Jews, Egyptians, Berbers, Turks and all those guys in the Balkans plus the possibility of Venetians, Granadans, Italians and Persians in an ATL), the military might to protect them and a measure of medieval liberalness and pragmatism that may endear them to both colonists and natives. Perhaps the Ottomans moving into the New World sparks a flurry of Christian colonization to "Keep up with the Osmans"?

How about more obscure states like the Malis or Mughals? Any chance of getting them in on the Age of Exploration?
 

Cook

Banned
For Ottoman presence you would need to give them comfortable access towards Atlantic.

You also need a motivation.

The Ottomans controlled the trade between Europe and Asia. Which lead the Portuguese and Spanish to look for ways around Africa and across the Ocean Sea.
 
You also need a motivation.

The Ottomans controlled the trade between Europe and Asia. Which lead the Portuguese and Spanish to look for ways around Africa and across the Ocean Sea.

Aztec gold and such.

The Mali might have a chance. I think I read somewhere that one King set out with 400 ships, that never returned. The Mughals are in the Indian Ocean, what reason do they have to go there? They were more a land power than naval. As Ridwan Asher said.

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Aztec gold and such.

The Mali might have a chance. I think I read somewhere that one King set out with 400 ships, that never returned.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1068950.stm

Wednesday, 13 December, 2000, 22:27 GMT
Africa's 'greatest explorer'

_1068950_mali300.jpg

Abubakari gave up his kingdom to pursue knowledge


By Joan Baxter in Mali
An African emperor who ruled Mali in the 14th century discovered America nearly 200 years before Christopher Columbus, according to a book to be launched this month.
Abubakari II ruled what was arguably the richest and largest empire on earth - covering nearly all of West Africa.

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Our aim is to bring out hidden parts of history
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Khadidjah Dire
According to a Malian scholar, Gaoussou Diawara in his book, 'The Saga of Abubakari II...he left with 2000 boats', the emperor gave up all power and gold to pursue knowledge and discovery.
Abubakari's ambition was to explore whether the Atlantic Ocean - like the great River Niger that swept through Mali - had another 'bank'.
In 1311, he handed the throne over to his brother, Kankou Moussa, and set off on an expedition into the unknown.
His predecessor and uncle, Soundjata Keita, had already founded the Mali empire and conquered a good stretch of the Sahara Desert and the great forests along the West African coast.
Gold fields
The book also focuses on a research project being carried out in Mali tracing Abubakari's journeys.
"We are not saying that Abubakari II was the first ever to cross the ocean," says Tiemoko Konate, who heads the project
"There is evidence that the Vikings were in America long before him, as well as the Chinese," he said.
_1068950_griot150.jpg

Most Griots are beginning to divulge Abubakari's secrets


The researchers claim that Abubakari's fleet of pirogues, loaded with men and women, livestock, food and drinking water, departed from what is the coast of present-day Gambia.
They are gathering evidence that in 1312 Abubakari II landed on the coast of Brazil in the place known today as Recife.
"Its other name is Purnanbuco, which we believe is an aberration of the Mande name for the rich gold fields that accounted for much of the wealth of the Mali Empire, Boure Bambouk."
Another researcher, Khadidjah Djire says they have found written accounts of Abubakari's expedition in Egypt, in a book written by Al Omari in the 14th century.
"Our aim is to bring out hidden parts of history", she says.

Black traders
Mr Konate says they are also examining reports by Columbus, himself, who said he found black traders already present in the Americas.
They also cite chemical analyses of the gold tips that Columbus found on spears in the Americas, which show that the gold probably came from West Africa.
_1068950_family150.jpg

Mali was a gold kingdom, but most families live in poverty


But the scholars say the best sources of information on Abubakari II are Griots - the original historians in Africa.
Mr Diawara says the paradox of Abubakari II, is that the Griots themselves imposed a seal of silence on the story.
"The Griots found his abdication a shameful act, not worthy of praise," Mr Diawara said.
"For that reason they have refused to sing praise or talk of this great African man."
Mr Diawara says the Griots in West Africa such as Sadio Diabate, are slowly starting to divulge the secrets on Abubakari II.
'Hard-nosed historians'
But the research team says an even bigger challenge is to convince hard-nosed historians elsewhere that oral history can be just as accurate as written records.
Mr Diawara believes Abubakari's saga has an important moral lesson for leaders of small nation states in West Africa, which were once part of the vast Mande-speaking empire.
"Look at what's going on in all the remnants of that empire, in Ivory Coast, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Guinea.
"Politicians are bathing their countries in blood, setting them on fire just so that they can cling to power," says Mr Diawara.
"They should take an example from Abubakari II. He was a far more powerful man than any of them. And he was willing to give it all up in the name of science and discovery." "That should be a lesson for everyone in Africa today," concludes Mr Diawara.

 
OK, here it is! I know it's not too plausible though, but oh well! :eek:

0Zvo8.png


Here the Swedish have a large role at the colonization of North America; the Belgians control Hispaniola; the Byzantines colonize the southern part of Patagonia; natives are converted to the Greek culture; Columbus sets sale for a certain Italian state instead of Spain; Novgorod becomes the dominant Russian state; China and Japan colonize North America; natives are converted to the Japanese culture; the HRE colonizes South America; etc.

Just imagine native Americans with Samurai armor and katanas! :D
 
Thinking About It

I imagine there would be a 4-way battle for Supremacy in America

Side #1: Roman Empire (Byzantium)
The Fourth Crusade never happened, so the Eastern Roman Empire at Constantinople managed to restore its power. It went on to crush the Seljuks in Middle East and reconquered its Western Roman Empire areas and thus prevented the Great Schism. The Byzantium then united Europe (except for Russia) under a Roman banner. I imagine the Romans would colonize North America and some Caribbean areas.

Side #2: Mali Empire
Instead of rotting before replaced by the Songhai empire, the Mali empire somehow managed to flourish and became a Western African power. I'll think about how plausible this would be. I imagine the Malinese would colonize South America and also the Caribbean that they clashed with the Romans.

Side #3: Inca Empire (Tawantinsuyu)
Because the Byzantium didn't fall, the Renaissance come slower and only did because Rome conquered the rest of Europe. Because of that, the Incan Empire managed to continue its rapid expanision through the Americas. (It might even conquer the Aztecs:). Fun fact: the Incan empire existed for less than 100 years and yet it managed to create such a large empire, imagine how large they would be if the Europeans came much later. When the outside powers came, the Incan would dominated a large part of Western South America and Central America.

Side #4: Russian Empire
Like in OTL, the Russians managed to conquer all of Siberia and managed to cross onto Alaska. Unlike in OTL though, the Russians actually invested a heavily in the American colonization because of their rivalries with the Romans. I imagine the Russians would colonize Western Americas through Alaska and would get as far as California or even Minnesota (if the Romans didn't get there first:))

Now, how plausible would that be?:confused:
 
I imagine there would be a 4-way battle for Supremacy in America

Side #1: Roman Empire (Byzantium)
The Fourth Crusade never happened, so the Eastern Roman Empire at Constantinople managed to restore its power. It went on to crush the Seljuks in Middle East and reconquered its Western Roman Empire areas and thus prevented the Great Schism. The Byzantium then united Europe (except for Russia) under a Roman banner. I imagine the Romans would colonize North America and some Caribbean areas.

This seems like a Byzantine-wank of which i am not so sure if it's plausible at all. I mean, conquering Europe is quite a task, especially in this era. Maybe you'd have more plausibility with personal unions and royal marriages. ;)

Side #2: Mali Empire
Instead of rotting before replaced by the Songhai empire, the Mali empire somehow managed to flourish and became a Western African power. I'll think about how plausible this would be. I imagine the Malinese would colonize South America and also the Caribbean that they clashed with the Romans.
I can see some settlements in Brazil and/or the Carribean being created by the Mali Empire. Not sure if they'll manage to hold their ground there though, but it's quite plausible seeing the natives are having difficulties with the European diseases.

Side #3: Inca Empire (Tawantinsuyu)
Because the Byzantium didn't fall, the Renaissance come slower and only did because Rome conquered the rest of Europe. Because of that, the Incan Empire managed to continue its rapid expanision through the Americas. (It might even conquer the Aztecs:). Fun fact: the Incan empire existed for less than 100 years and yet it managed to create such a large empire, imagine how large they would be if the Europeans came much later. When the outside powers came, the Incan would dominated a large part of Western South America and Central America.
Plausible, but remember that the diseases will still strike them massively! In OTL it even resulted in a civil war! Imagine an even larger empire being at civil war.

Side #4: Russian Empire
Like in OTL, the Russians managed to conquer all of Siberia and managed to cross onto Alaska. Unlike in OTL though, the Russians actually invested a heavily in the American colonization because of their rivalries with the Romans. I imagine the Russians would colonize Western Americas through Alaska and would get as far as California or even Minnesota (if the Romans didn't get there first:))
Perfectly plausible, as OTL has proven. :)
 
Er...I'm afraid Byzantine colonization's pretty unlikely. IOTL, Rome only shrank, both internally and externally, once a couple of centuries had passed after Caesar hacked his constitution. It was pretty Talibanesque by the end.

Unchecked government, especially monarchy like the Empire, has a pretty bad record compared to checked governments like ours and the Roman Republic's. You need some earlyish checks and balances on the Empire to fix that (there are threads that do that). Plus, old cultures grow corrupt.

No, think Ottoman colonization, like upthread.
 
This seems like a Byzantine-wank of which i am not so sure if it's plausible at all. I mean, conquering Europe is quite a task, especially in this era. Maybe you'd have more plausibility with personal unions and royal marriages. ;)

I can see some settlements in Brazil and/or the Carribean being created by the Mali Empire. Not sure if they'll manage to hold their ground there though, but it's quite plausible seeing the natives are having difficulties with the European diseases.

Plausible, but remember that the diseases will still strike them massively! In OTL it even resulted in a civil war! Imagine an even larger empire being at civil war.

Perfectly plausible, as OTL has proven. :)

-I can see your point on Byzantium, it would be pretty unlikely to conquer the entire Europe. Silly Me:eek:. Personal unions will be more plausible, no doubt. The Byzantium then will be much more decentralized then the other powers I guess. I think I would be able to see Europe under the power of Constantinople through marriages instead of wars, kind of like the Habsburg minus the inbreeding (okay maybe not the minus part;)) OTOH, doing that will resulted in much more complications during the American colonization. Instead of under the Roman banner colonization would be under the Spanish, English, Portuguese, etc. like in OTL.

-I don't know too much about the Mali Empire to be honest and it's still not too clear how the Songhay replaced the Mali. I also think with the Mali in competition for the Americas the European colonizers would be much more willing to ally with each other (if not already so because their rulers were related: see the my Byzantium reply above).

-Well, I never say that it would be easy for the Incans. The disease will come and the efficient road systems of the Incans only made it worse. But there may be some strong Incan figure to get their acts together and band against the outsiders that took their lands. We must remember that the likes of Cortes and Pizzarro in OTL only managed to get Spain so much lands because of both the diseases and some luck. We could somehow butterfly away so that lady luck smiles upon the native Incans instead of the European and/or Malinese colonizers:cool:.

-So then I'm keeping my Russian America then:D.

Er...I'm afraid Byzantine colonization's pretty unlikely. IOTL, Rome only shrank, both internally and externally, once a couple of centuries had passed after Caesar hacked his constitution. It was pretty Talibanesque by the end.

Unchecked government, especially monarchy like the Empire, has a pretty bad record compared to checked governments like ours and the Roman Republic's. You need some earlyish checks and balances on the Empire to fix that (there are threads that do that). Plus, old cultures grow corrupt.

No, think Ottoman colonization, like upthread.

-I see your point. Some butterflies would be needed to get some 'earlyish checks and balances' as you say. BTW, I would like to see some of those threads that dealt with that checks and balances.

-I seriously doubt that Ottoman colonization is any more plausible than Byzantine colonization, seeing that both governments we're not so different with their absolutist rulers and whatnot. But I like the Byzantium more than the Ottomans, sue me:p.
 
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