Challenge: A modern day independent Burgundy

Valdemar II

Banned
What could ensue from Valdemars construction: An independent Lutheran Burgundy, and an independent Calvinist united Netherlands, both separated from both France and Germany.

I doubt Netherland would go Calvinist without the Habsburg, it was only because the Habsburg succed in getting rid of Lutheranism, that it opened room for Calvinism. Up until the 1540ties Lutherans fought a battle to set root in Dutch soil, and they had great succes in the areas without Habsburg control, but the Habsburg was quite succesful in rooting them up. while the Calvinist only entered the scene in 1560, and there more decentral stance than the Lutherans serve them well.
 
I'd have to call into question that there would even be Lutheranism and Calvinism.
Even Protestantism as a whole isn't an absolute certainty with a POD in the 15th century. Especially protestantism as we know it- there could be some analogue emerging but the local leader cracks down hard and it just becomes Hussites mark 2 (or mark...10+ or something more accuratly, there were loads of such herectic groups before)
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I'd have to call into question that there would even be Lutheranism and Calvinism.
Even Protestantism as a whole isn't an absolute certainty with a POD in the 15th century. Especially protestantism as we know it- there could be some analogue emerging but the local leader cracks down hard and it just becomes Hussites mark 2 (or mark...10+ or something more accuratly, there were loads of such herectic groups before)

I thought of that point, but I think some kind of alt versions will happen, the question are whether they will thrieve, Luthers succes was a example of extreme luck, through in Switzerland, I think some kind of Zwinglism/Clavinism will happen, and thrieve, Switzerland are defensive enough to secure survival (at least for a few centuries). But I lean to that even if alt. Lutheranism doesn't thrieve a new version will pop up, when the situation in the HRE premit it. Somekind of religeous revolution was almost unavoidable after 1450, the Popes and cardinals was to corrupt and powerful, writing and reading to common and clerical land a to mouth watering price to avoid it.
 
Charles V. retreated in 1556, by that date no ruler is exchanged relative to otl.
How should that stop Lutheranism? It's already widespread in both population and aristocracy of Germany.

Of course the political dynamics in the second half of the 16th century could take some surprising turns.


I doubt Netherland would go Calvinist without the Habsburg, it was only because the Habsburg succed in getting rid of Lutheranism, that it opened room for Calvinism. Up until the 1540ties Lutherans fought a battle to set root in Dutch soil, and they had great succes in the areas without Habsburg control, but the Habsburg was quite succesful in rooting them up. while the Calvinist only entered the scene in 1560, and there more decentral stance than the Lutherans serve them well.

I do not know about the details of the proliferation of the reformation in the Netherlands, but there are comparable territories where Lutheranism was quickly embraced, and Calvinism went through as successfully. For instance, Bremen.
 
Part of the problem with surviving Burgundy is if it has the Low Countries France will do all it can to stop it. The best way for a large Burgundy to survive would be to separate it from the Low Countries. Maybe give John I Valois the Fearless more surviving sons. Or don't have Philip I marry Marguerite III of Flanders. Or go back further and don't have Robert III of Flanders marry Yolande of Nevers - that way as Burgundy tries to recover ancient Burgundian territories such as Nevers it won't become involved with Flanders territories.
 
I think such a state could last into the 20th century if we're conservative about butterflies (ie the general course of history is similar to ours), perhaps a great or middle power, the industrial revolution will certainly be happening there and with a united polity the Low Countries may be one of the few places alnogside England that has a chance of kick starting an Industrial Revolution.

There is a problem with having the Low Countries kickstart an industrial revolution. This problem might even be a cause of civil war or seperation. Burgundy with Flanders as an important part of their possession would press for industrialisation. Their northern provinces (roughly the United Netherlands) would strongly oppose to this though. Shifting focus towards industry and production would mean less focus on trade which is important for them! It is one of the reasons why Belgium seperated in 1830-1839. I mean, the Netherlands only really started industrialising in the 1890's, which is really late. =P
 
Guys, what exactly is the most integral part of Burgundy? There's been multiple incarnations of it, all with the same name. What about the Kingdom of Arles?
 
Guys, what exactly is the most integral part of Burgundy? There's been multiple incarnations of it, all with the same name. What about the Kingdom of Arles?
Every thread about Burgundy seems to get derailed by confusion as to precisely which Burgundy is begin discussed. Most posts in this thread apparently have been focused on the Valois-Burgundy feudal state, a collection of principalities and fiefdoms in France and the Low Countries named after the founding house's original holdings. The name subsequently was applied to the territory the Valois-Burgundy family held: c.f. the Burgundian Netherlands.

The original kingdom of Arles was formed in 933 and by 1032 was subsumed into the Holy Roman Empire. It was distinct from the old kingdom of Burgundy which only briefly existed before Frankish conquest. In the ninth century the Duchy of Burgundy was separated and made a part of West Francia. I'm not sure whether this kingdom was ever very significant. Perhaps at best, remaining independent, it could achieve a brief period of Mediterranean dominance, somewhat like Aragon in OTL.
 
Perhaps the territory itself wasn't all that significant, but what about the title? Was Arles the Kingdom mentioned in the crown of Burgundy that the HRE at one point had, in addition to the Kingdoms of Germany and Italy?
 
Currently in my For the Glory game as Burgundy, I own Flanders, Brabant, and points south, yet Zeeland and Holland have revolted and created the Netherlands. Burgundy is Catholic while the Dutch are Reformed. Could such a situation, with a Burgundy that owns parts of the Low Countries down south to Dijon in France, with an independent Dutch state centered around Holland holding out, have existed?
 
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