It isn't? I always thought they were pretty far apart. Locke being more liberal, and Hobbes being absolutist...
They had the same general conception of humanity, but different conclusions.
It isn't? I always thought they were pretty far apart. Locke being more liberal, and Hobbes being absolutist...
Nihao, I think you'll find more than one (now sadly defunct) threads on this very board who have at least poked at the idea of using Mohism as the basis of Chinese thought in place of Confucianism. Some (myself included) have even postulated a scientific revolution a few dozen hundred years early as a consequence.
They had the same general conception of humanity, but different conclusions.
Well, the different conclusions are what matters IMO.
No, Plato and the Bolsheviks did not have much in common besides being ideologues.
If you really want to learn about ancient ideologues, look at king Cleomenes III of Sparta who was influenced by the stoic Sphairos. Look at Blossius of Cumae who influenced Tiberius Grassus (not coincidentally the very Roman politician who is compared most often to our Communists) and Eumenes III / Aristonikos of Pergamum. Under Blossius' influence, Eumenes tried to take back Pergamum (which the last king had bequeathed to Rome) from the Romans and create the "Heliopolis" state, where all the serfs and slaves would be free. All he created was death and chaos. The Greeks would have done better if they had evicted most (if not all) of their philosophers, just as Cato did in Rome.
If one would take a look at the history of pre-united China, one would find the same result: Ideologues weakening the six states who lost the fight against Legalist Qin.
Ideologues may have different opinions (two ideologues - three opinions), but always the same result: Destruction of the society. Societies who listen to them deserve a Darwin Award.
No, Plato and the Bolsheviks did not have much in common besides being ideologues.
Red Tiger in Thespitron's TL is basically: WI a child of Zhang Xianzhong and the Joker ran half of China.
Han chauvinism (like OTL Japanese Yamato fascism, but with all the resources and claims of China behind it) would be frightening as hell.
I immediately thought of Taoism. The book <Lao Tsu> has described an utopia where there will be small countries with small population, with people tended to be lived in a primitive and natural life, and are quite ignorant (in an modern extent, as Lao Tsu once said gaining more knowledge will potentially makes people more cunning). The ruler make laws that are simple and unchallengable---or say no one will ever want to challenge that.
To make this utopia becomes an dystopia, maybe we will have a group of revolutionaries rose up in a corrupting Chinese dynasty, say mid Tang, as the emperors were actually tested the scholars in Taoist classics instead of Confucian ones, which gave a chance for some of the scholars to learn Taoism. Say the Gokturks or other nomads strong enough to invade Tang, and scared the court a lot, resulted in massive conscription in order to get rid of the nomads, and eventually there were not enough farmers for farms, thus not enough food for the people, and along with a series of droughts a and/or floodings, the country will eventually fell in chaos even through the nomads were lost.
Then a group of scholars, who knowledged with Taoist philosophy, wanted to establish an Taoist utopia to rescue the people. They blamed the Confucianism as it was responsible for the corruption of the court, and it also contradicted many thoughts on Taoism. After the revolution succeed, the leading scholars, along with generals who supported them in the chaos has been assured that they will carve up their own realms in the Middle Kingdom while no one will invade the others. Thus China was being divided in many small countries, which all used the Taoist way to rule their people---decrease the population as low as possible, even if massacre was the effective way to archive this; restrict people to use iron tools to do their works and to be literate; and of course, no critics to the court. There might be small changes in the laws, but largely they were all similar.
What is Red Tiger Thought?
(translated out of the Korean)
The tiger that can be seen in the forest is not the real tiger.
The Emperor that can be bowed before is not the real emperor.
The bestial is the origin of civilization and culture
While mindlessness is the origin of bestialness.
Animal and man devour each other.
Famine and feast slake each other.
Living and dead define each other.
Flame and water quench each other.
Action and stillness complement each other.
Thought and emptiness destroy each other.
Therefore the beast dwells in the condition of action without acting,
Doing without thinking,
Being without living.
Therefore the tiger hunts without expectation,
Eats without fulfillment,
And kills without caring or guilt in his actions.
Because he has no mind, he has no guilt,
And he is free.
If you mock the worthy, you destroy all power.
If you smash rare treasures, there will be no theft.
If people are deprived of desirables, they will forget them and be at peace.
Therefore, when the tiger governs,
He empties the minds of the people,
He puts flesh in their bellies,
He destroys that which raises them up,
And makes them into strong oxen to work in the fields unceasingly.
If the people are kept without thought or hunger,
The mind will wither and will not meddle.
The forest and the city are not humane,
And regard the people as straw dogs.
The tiger is not humane,
And burns up the straw dogs in the fiery furnace.
What is Red Tiger Thought? To follow the Way. To act without acting, to do without doing, to be without being. To become a beast once more. Man exploits. The tiger in the forest, the wolf in the high mountains, they devour the deer or the ox, but they do not exploit. It is in their nature that they should devour, and they give it no thought. They are mindless. Mind, in knowing, knows good and knows evil. The whole world sees what is beautiful, and cannot deny that it is beautiful--and thus knows ugliness. The whole world sees what is good, and cannot deny that it is good--and thus knows evil.
But Red Tiger does not know good or evil, beauty or ugliness! He knows only hunger. To be hungry is to be filled. To be filled is to be happy.
What is happiness? It is a full belly and an empty mind. Because the mind knows, it is no longer adrift in the Way. The Way that can be thought on is not the true Way. Therefore clear your mind of thought and become as a beast again, and you will know happiness.
What is the city of Red Tiger? The city of Red Tiger is the forest! Walls and a roof are raised up to make a house. It is because of the house's emptiness that it is useful. Tear down the walls and roof and leave only emptiness behind. In absence there is purity. The walls of the forest are open air, and cannot be torn down. Red Tiger will tear down all the cities, and make forests of their ruins.
What is the palace of Red Tiger? The palace of Red Tiger is the open field! The open field exposes all to the heavens without favor. Impartiality is imperiousness. Imperiousness is savagery. Savagery is the Way, and the Way is eternal. Red Tiger shall make all men equal before him in the open field of Red Tiger's palace. He shall rule without favor or partiality. He shall be an Emperor. And he shall be savage like an Emperor.
When the Way dies, then there is kindness, generosity, and righteousness. When the mind is present, all is deception. When the country is in chaos, Red Tiger appears. He shall bring back the true Way, through cruelty, savagery, and viciousness. He shall bring back honesty, by destroying the mind.
Get rid of this so-called "virtue" and throw out "right thinking", and everyone will benefit. Get rid of "charity", which does not exist, and "righteousness", which is a fraud, and people will be happy. Get rid of thought and destroy all material goods, and tyrants and bandits will cease to exist. Red Tiger will keep what is non-differentiated and annihilate that which is "sophisticated" and "cultured", leaving only the beast.
Destroy thought, and people will stop being so worried. In truth--how different are "yes" and "no"? How far removed are "good" and "evil"? They are the same thing. There is no good, no evil. There is only thought, and there is the Way. To follow the Way is to be free of thought, and to be free of thought is to be free.
What is Red Tiger Thought? To follow the Way. To be free. To be equal. To be dealt with without partiality. To be full. To live without tyrants or thieves. To be honest. All these things are Red Tiger Thought.
Red Tiger Thought is the Thought which does not exist. Red Tiger Thought is the Way that cannot be followed. Red Tiger Thought is the true Thought and the true Way. Red Tiger Thought is the Order that is disordered.
Red Tiger Thought is a full belly and an empty mind. Empty your mind and embrace Red Tiger.
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Wasn't Falangism already used in Franco's Spain? I don't think it would qualify for "unexplored", but I'll have to admit the flag is cool.![]()
Anarchism. I'd love to see a Makhnovist Ukraine gone all Mad-Max. Really, I just love lefty dystopias because it shatters their proposed illusions about the glorious post-Capitalist future.
So imagine an Axis-alligned Fascist Liberia headed by a madman who entitles himself the "Emperor of Africa".
That would absolute chaos. Would make anarchism look Orwellian.What about a country run by Nihilists?
I think an AH successful Marcus Garvey may have been Eugene O'Neill's model for "The Emperor Jones".The early Pan-African movement can be very creepy if we look it in today's light. Marcus Garvey entitled himself as Emperor of Africa and was favourable to the recolonization of Africa by afro-descendents. Liberia was essential. He was also a declared racist, even offending other Africanist, Du Bois, in the base that he was mixed. He even worked with the KKK as they did have the same goal ('Back to Africa'), although for different reasons.
So imagine an Axis-alligned Fascist Liberia headed by a madman who entitles himself the "Emperor of Africa". This state seeks to "free" Africa and recolonize it with Afro-descendants, and those two objectives are the main pillars of its foreign politics. It also have strong bonds both with black as well white supremacist groups. In other words: Dystopia.
Plus, let us not forget this proposition: The Republic of New Africa. An independent state in black-majority counties in the South. Apartheid anyone?
I think an AH successful Marcus Garvey may have been Eugene O'Neill's model for "The Emperor Jones".
For a good example of a dystopian "new african" movement, look at the Nuwabians. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuwaubianism and http://www.nuwaubianfacts.com/ for those who want to peruse the group's own website.