Challenge: A Dutch Superpower

Not. Happening.

Well, I guess thats not completely true. A surviving Burgundy that controls all the Low Countries and eastern France and Western Germany could possibly do it. But thats the problem- in order to be a superpower, Holland has be so expanded that it would lose its Dutchness.
 
I hate it when people use Holland. It's like saying England instead of UK.

For a long time Dutch was just a German dialect. If they could take some land back then, by the present day they could be quite large and Dutch.
 
Well if the Electorate of Hannover somehow merges with the Netherlands, and then the Napoleonic Wars go wildly different, they could end up with the Rhineland... but we near a point where it becomes more German than Dutch.
 
Many Northern German dialects aren't that different from Dutch. If instead of Martin Luther there's another reformer who translates the Bible into Lower German, which is understandable for both Dutch and Northern Germans, but not for Southern Germans, maybe Germany falls apart in a different way. With a bigger part for the Dutch.
 
To be exact, Plattdieutsch is part of the same Franconian dialect continuum as Dutch and Flemish, which is distinct from the High German/Alemannic dialect continuum. The "Dutch Superpower" is still pretty unlikely, even if it controls all of Franconian-speaking Europe from a very early POD. At its max, it will be as strong as OTL France.
 
However, this as-strong-as-France Netherlands could colonize North America, which could tip the scale in their favor in the long run...
 
Max Sinister said:
However, this as-strong-as-France Netherlands could colonize North America, which could tip the scale in their favor in the long run...

True, but the "Dieutsch" kingdom would be more focused on securing its own borders than the OTL Nederlands, and colonies would be a secondary focus. It would certainly be a great seafaring power, however, and a quick estimate suggests it would be stronger in that regard than OTL France due to its higher standard of general development (France has always had backwards rural regions) and lower capability in terms of natural resources. Competition with Britain would be much more intense than OTL, and a weakened France might conceivably ally with Britain against Superpower Nederlands.
 
I could see a tripolar Europe developing, France against Britain against Dutch superpower against France. The other powers - Spain, Venice, any combination of Poland, Bohemia, Hungary, Austria - could ally with each of them.
 
It's hard to speculate on the politics until we have a good POD. Maybe something like I was discussing in the unified Europe thread, a continued Frankish kingdom that does not include France?
The Frankish homeland lay on both sides of the Rhine, in the OTL Low Countries, northeastern France, and the German Rhineland. France would not come into existence, and would probably be replaced by Burgundy, Aquitaine, Britanny, Normandy, and Gascony as seperate political entities. Britain, when it unifies, would probably control one or more of these through dynastic union, and "Gallia" would be the scene of rivalry between the Nederlands and Britain. I don't really know what the effect of unified Nederlands would be on the rest of Germany. Perhaps the Hohenstaufens would have a better chance of uniting Germany early.
 

Thande

Donor
In Decades of Darkness the Netherlands is one of the leading parts of Germany. Amplify that. That's what I plan to do in an upcoming TL: Germany unifies similar to OTL, but instead of Prussia OR Austria being the driving forces and would-be leaders for it (they are doing other things), it's the Netherlands. It's not exactly "Superpower Netherlands" but...
 
Problem of the Netherlands, same as with Austria: They aren't exactly in the center of Germany but on the edge. So parts of the HRE don't really feel they have much in common with the Great Power.
 
An earlier unification of Brabant with Flanders-Holland would probably help.
Keep it separate from Burgundy and a stronger Netherlands Duchy/Kingdom might be around in time for colonisation of America, East Indies etc.
 
No Duke of Parma. That would go a long way, yes?

The Dutch rising against Philip II thus is more successful and in the end constitutes the historic Seventeen Provinces.

This substantially larger economic and population base might then be able to conduct future expansion regaining the territories lost when the Burgundian Netherlands became the Seventeen Provinces and also adding more bits of Germany.

I don't know if we'd have a superpower, but certainly more powerful then historically.

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The United provinces in OTL, have approximately 1,9 million inhabitants; including de "generaliteitslanden" North brabant and most of Limburg. With this and nothing more; the Dutch were a superpower during most of the seventeenth century.

Adding All of Flanders and South Brabant would double the populational mass as well as the tax revenue base. Most important reason for dutch decline after 1700; were the interest payments on Hollands massive outstanding debts. They topped even total tax revenue sometimes; so in fact Holland wen't bankrupt; just no one took the trouble to file it.

With the southern netherlands added to the Dutch Republic, the interest payments could easily be afforded. In my opinion this unification, in combination with the introduction of a centralised tax system in the enlarged dutch republic, would have the United Netherlands in the political premier league for at least two more centuries. The effect on South africa, Australia, the east Indies and Guyana is something I'm still working on. But a Dutch Empire could in fact co exist with the British empire on a more or less equal basis.
 
With a governmental control of Colonial territory a world power must have been possible, so the forming of the Dutch East India Company was the beginning of the end. Although the real problem was the reinforcement of Spanish troops after the battle of Battle of Lepanto. Without the war with Spain could have been won much earlier and with an organized foreign policy the borders of the homeland could have been easier defended. And maybe the wars with Britain would developed different.
 
A few ideas come to mind...

Greater effort at colonization, preferably in an area where the British aren't in competition. Considering the vast wealth of South Africa and the survival of the Dutch settlers for more than a century under Dutch rule despite the most minimal of efforts it is easy to imagine a few thousand more arrivals in the 17th Century providing a big boost.

In OTL, amazing as it seems, it is doubtful that more than one thousand settlers sufficed to establish the Boers. Surely a few thousand could have been found somewhere?


Partition of Belgium. France's border advanced significantly in the 17th Century in the northeast, relative to the current Franco-Belgian border. Since France had desires elsewhere, award 70-75 percent of Belgium to Holland, plus throw in Luxumborg.


Marital unity. Why not have an heir to Hanover marry into Holland instead of Great Britain? Now we have a tripled Holland!
 
A few ideas come to mind...

With the issues you are writing the POD could have been the French occupation of the Netherlands with the Batavian Republic as a result. Without the French connection South Africa would remain Dutch.

I still think that with some adjustments of the Congress of Vienna history would be very different.
 
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