Challenge: a different French dynasty

As most people might know, the Capetians and their kin ruled France from the 900s to the 1800s, almost a millennium of Capetian (and Valois and Bourbon, both Capetian cadet branches) rule of France.

Here's a challenge. The POD can be anywhere in history after the Capets have come to the throne.... make the House of Castries rule France.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Castries
There's the wiki article about them. How could it come about that they would rule France? Would the Valois and Bourbon houses both have to die out for this to happen? How could this result be achieved?
 
Here's a challenge. The POD can be anywhere in history after the Capets have come to the throne.... make the House of Castries rule France.

Considering that they weren't even part of the nobility until the end of the 15th century, seems like the POD will have to come after that time, unless we are going to indulge in pure fantasy. :confused:
 
I never said the POD couldn't be later than that.
I'm not sure if that would be possible. By that time the law of agnatic primogeniture was already firmly entrenched into French legal theory, and the house of Capet was already quite without want of male dynasts. Briefly put: the house of Hugh Capet was legally called "la maison de France" for a reason, it was France, and had ruled in unbroken succession since the tenth century. The name "house of Capet" is just a modernism invented after the revolution.
And, even assuming that the male line somehow failed, Louis XIV had come to an understanding with the Duke of Lorraine that, in such an event, it would be the house of Lorraine that would inherit. And, while this was contested by Parlement, it was still the opinion of most jurists that, in the event of the extinction of the royal house, it would be the Estates General would decide who to award the throne too; and, believe me when I say that no early modern thinker would even contemplate awarding the crown of France (a realm considered the "eldest daughter of the church") to a dynasty of nobility that could only trace its origins to post-1400. It is simply how things go: only royalty may replace other royalty; nobility, while of an exalted position, is still inferior to blood royal.
There were, however, certain families in France which were considered "foreign princes," and if not of royal blood themselves, rather close to it (i.e. the houses of Rohan, Guise, La Tour d'Auvergne, etc.).

Just my two cents.
 
Okay then.

How about this: let's say that all the Capetian houses die out (first the Direct Capetians, then the Valois, Bourbon, and Orleans branches. Who would replace them on the French throne?
 
Okay then.

How about this: let's say that all the Capetian houses die out (first the Direct Capetians, then the Valois, Bourbon, and Orleans branches. Who would replace them on the French throne?

Well, it really depends on the period of time that you're looking at. Where would you like your POD to be in this?
 
Well, it really depends on the period of time that you're looking at. Where would you like your POD to be in this?

Well, the Direct Capetians die out AIOTL. Let's say the Bourbon rulers are killed during the War of the League of Cambrai.... and the House of Bourbon dies out due to the lack of a male heir. The Valois dynasty dies out some time in the 1500s or 1600s.
 
Well, the Direct Capetians die out AIOTL. Let's say the Bourbon rulers are killed during the War of the League of Cambrai.... and the House of Bourbon dies out due to the lack of a male heir. The Valois dynasty dies out some time in the 1500s or 1600s.

Alright then. So, assuming that the Valois die out at the same time they do in OT, with Henry III (who, regardless as to whether or not he is assassinated, will most likely be dead by 1600), I think the most probably candidate for succession would be one of the legitimated royal bastards. As in France there was no precedent for female succession, the idea would be hotly contested. A legitimated prince would most likely have a better claim anyway, as French private law essentially banned persons from inheriting French property if they were not nationals. Even Charles IX's brother, when elected king of Poland, had to secure letters patent making special exception for him to keep his French lands and titles, as well as his issue's rights of succession. Charles de Valois (b. 1573), duc d'Angouleme and legitimized son of Charles IX by his mistress Marie Touchet would be the most likely candidate.
Another possible route would be the accession of the house of Guise. The Guise family were considered foreign princes, being a cadet branch of the house of Lorraine, and thus of blood royal themselves. Indeed, the house of Lorraine had many historic ties to France, and Louis XIV would later recognize that family as being in line for the throne of France should the "august house of Bourbon" go extinct (in the treaty of Montmartre). While this was over a half a century after this date, it still says something about the historic connections between the house of Lorraine and France. Besides, given the immense power that the Guises had at this time, it would not be surprising if, after the Estates were convoked to grant their approval (as they alone were recognized by many legalists as having the power to change something so fundamental as the succession to the French crown), and Parlement registered an edict to its effect, that King Henry III would vest the succession in Duke Charles of Guise and his male issue.
Most likely, whatever the decision, you'd be looking at a European war, as Philip II of Spain would be apt to press the claims of his daughters by Elisabeth of Valois (sister to King Henry III)
 
So the Capets die out, and the Guises become the heirs. However, Philip II of Spain has children with their own claim on the French throne. The Estates-General convenes and decides who will become the new King of France. I'm thinking that the Estates-General might take this opportunity to get some concessions out of the new royal family.
 
So the Capets die out, and the Guises become the heirs. However, Philip II of Spain has children with their own claim on the French throne. The Estates-General convenes and decides who will become the new King of France. I'm thinking that the Estates-General might take this opportunity to get some concessions out of the new royal family.

Oh definitely. Personally, I think you'd be looking a very different seventeenth century, both in France and elsewhere.
Then again, that's not necessarily certain, as the Fronde has shown...kings of France were never very good at keeping their promises of concessions made to public bodies.
 
Oh definitely. Personally, I think you'd be looking a very different seventeenth century, both in France and elsewhere.
Then again, that's not necessarily certain, as the Fronde has shown...kings of France were never very good at keeping their promises of concessions made to public bodies.

The Kings of France always had the Capet family name and the legitimacy descended from that. With the Capets died out, and a new family elected to the throne (election kind of makes divine right seem a bit silly) I think that concessions made to public bodies begin to stick better. Without the Capets long history I think the throne will be a good deal more unstable, and the new royal family will need noble support. If something like the Fronde were to happen, then rather than fighting over the regency, one of the other leading noble families may simply claim the throne.
 
So the Capets die out, and the Guises become the heirs. However, Philip II of Spain has children with their own claim on the French throne. The Estates-General convenes and decides who will become the new King of France. I'm thinking that the Estates-General might take this opportunity to get some concessions out of the new royal family.

They maybe could reach some agreement. Philip II only have daughters from Elisabeth of Valois, so he could make his eldest daughter - Isabella - marry the son of the Duke of Guise, Charles. He was already supporting the Guises in the French War of Religions, so that would not be an issue. However, Elisabeth only had miscarriages in her OTL marriage with Albert of Habsburg. So, the Estates-General decision would have more consequeces. If they decide that the king should be Guise by an election, then his dynasty might continue through his brothers. However, if they decide that he is the king because he is married to Elisabeth, who carries the royal blood, then the Duke of Savoy, who married Catherine - the only Elisabeth's sister - and had issue might have a claim. We could have a French War of Succession, and a possible union with Savoy.
 
They maybe could reach some agreement. Philip II only have daughters from Elisabeth of Valois, so he could make his eldest daughter - Isabella - marry the son of the Duke of Guise, Charles. He was already supporting the Guises in the French War of Religions, so that would not be an issue. However, Elisabeth only had miscarriages in her OTL marriage with Albert of Habsburg. So, the Estates-General decision would have more consequeces. If they decide that the king should be Guise by an election, then his dynasty might continue through his brothers. However, if they decide that he is the king because he is married to Elisabeth, who carries the royal blood, then the Duke of Savoy, who married Catherine - the only Elisabeth's sister - and had issue might have a claim. We could have a French War of Succession, and a possible union with Savoy.

I think that the Estates-General would probably give the throne to the Guises on its own authority, not based on illegitimate blood ties. I say illegitimate blood ties because Salic law expressly forbids the passage of claims through females.

The Estates-General power rests on a very cloudy "French Constitution". Whatever else that constitution may be made of, salic law is the most visible, and in this case, the most important. Furthermore, I think the Estates-General is probably going to try and avoid foreign interference in French succession, and this is going to further move them toward choosing a king on their own authority.
 
I think that the Estates-General would probably give the throne to the Guises on its own authority, not based on illegitimate blood ties. I say illegitimate blood ties because Salic law expressly forbids the passage of claims through females.

The Estates-General power rests on a very cloudy "French Constitution". Whatever else that constitution may be made of, salic law is the most visible, and in this case, the most important. Furthermore, I think the Estates-General is probably going to try and avoid foreign interference in French succession, and this is going to further move them toward choosing a king on their own authority.

Exactly. If we recall the incident in which Louis XIV included his bastards into the succession, we see that Parlement later annulled the decree after his death on the grounds that only the Estates could change these hazy, fundamental French constitutional conventions. Just what was constitutional convention and what was in the realm of jurists to interpret (and indeed, the king to legislate) was very open to interpretation though.
Besides, as I said, foreign succession was never something that the French were comfortable with, even in private law. Hence their adherence to the Salic law in the first place.
Still though, I think that the Duke of Angouleme would have just as good of chances as the Duke of Guise, assuming he was a major by this time. Then again, the House of Lorraine-Guise was quite crafty and influential...
 
Exactly. If we recall the incident in which Louis XIV included his bastards into the succession, we see that Parlement later annulled the decree after his death on the grounds that only the Estates could change these hazy, fundamental French constitutional conventions. Just what was constitutional convention and what was in the realm of jurists to interpret (and indeed, the king to legislate) was very open to interpretation though.
Besides, as I said, foreign succession was never something that the French were comfortable with, even in private law. Hence their adherence to the Salic law in the first place.
Still though, I think that the Duke of Angouleme would have just as good of chances as the Duke of Guise, assuming he was a major by this time. Then again, the House of Lorraine-Guise was quite crafty and influential...

Added to crafty and influential should be bloody minded. If the throne of France opened up, I think any potential claimants who weren't Guises might find themselves having bad accidents.

What would the Estates-General that elected the new dynasty look like, and proceeding from that question, what kind of concessions would this Estates-General be asking for from the new monarch? As in, do they want power of the purse, certain rights to be upheld, some kind of written document to be signed, what does kind of power does the E-G desire?
 
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