Challenge: A Canadian Zone in Berlin

MacCaulay

Banned
In honour of Canada Day, I'm going to pitch this. The challenge, should you choose to except it, is to get a Canadian Zone of occupation in Berlin at the end of WWII. Subtle and/or cool wanking is allowed.

World War II has to start like it did in OTL.

I'll start with mine, which I will admit should be tossed to the ASB scrap heap:

(Roughly)

The Canadian Government begins a draft system similar to that of the United States, and thus forgoes the "zombie" problem that the armed forces will have later. (this is the ASB part and the PoD. We're going to assume that there aren't widespread riots and craziness)
With this added manpower beginning in 1940, the Canadian Army is able to field 2 Army Groups in Britain for the invasion of France, as opposed to the single one that they fielded in OTL.
When the Canadians land at Juno Beach, they do so with only token British assistance and not under British command. The Canadian Parachute Regiment, under James Hill, lands behind the lines at Cayeux and enabling the Canadians to push to Caen by the second day.
(Okay, the rest of the campaign I don't have figured out yet...suffice it to say, the 1st Canadian Army Group and 2nd Canadian Army Group advance along the French coast, then through the coast of the Low Countries. Eventually, they are inside Germany when the surrender comes in 1945.)
The Canadians, almost abreast of the Americans and British in the drive through Germany in April 1945, have been pushing for an occupation zone in Berlin since the Christmas season of 1944/45 when 1st Canadian Armoured Division was leading a drive towards Dusseldorf to draw the Germans away from the Bulge.
The other Allies agree, and 1st Canadian Army Group rolls into Berlin mere days after the surrender to begin setting up shop alongside their allies in what will become NATO.

So...there you go. There's my version. Very wanky if I do say so myself. And ask any Canadian: the unrealistic part is the "ASBing away the Zombies".
 

Deleted member 5719

So...there you go. There's my version. Very wanky if I do say so myself. And ask any Canadian: the unrealistic part is the "ASBing away the Zombies".

Interesting, but what's the definition of zombies, in Canadian millitary circles?
 
Interesting, but what's the definition of zombies, in Canadian millitary circles?

Zombie was American and Canadian military slang for someone conscripted for home defence who refused to fight overseas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_Crisis_of_1944

The Canadian Government begins a draft system similar to that of the United States, and thus forgoes the "zombie" problem that the armed forces will have later. (this is the ASB part and the PoD. We're going to assume that there aren't widespread riots and craziness)

Quebec was the big sticking point here. English Canadians were pretty okay with the idea (for the most part) but Quebec was dead set against it. You need to have the Canadian government either adopt a 'fuck them' attitude with Quebec or have them cut some kind of deal (no idea what that may be though).

Mind you, all this was because the infantry was getting killed off faster than they could get volunteers to replace them. Can we tweak some of the earlier battles so there wasn't quite as heavy loss of life for the Canucks?
 
In honour of Canada Day, I'm going to pitch this. The challenge, should you choose to except it, is to get a Canadian Zone of occupation in Berlin at the end of WWII. Subtle and/or cool wanking is allowed.

World War II has to start like it did in OTL.

I'll start with mine, which I will admit should be tossed to the ASB scrap heap:

(Roughly)

The Canadian Government begins a draft system similar to that of the United States, and thus forgoes the "zombie" problem that the armed forces will have later. (this is the ASB part and the PoD. We're going to assume that there aren't widespread riots and craziness)
With this added manpower beginning in 1940, the Canadian Army is able to field 2 Army Groups in Britain for the invasion of France, as opposed to the single one that they fielded in OTL.

The Canadians never fielded an army group in WWII. The Canadian 1st Army deployed in France in '44 contained 1 Canadian corps of 3 divisions with an additional corp of 2 divisions redeployed from Italy to France in the Spring of '45 (about March I believe). I can't see that Canada would ever have the manpower resources to do much more than that without serious impact upon other area's of their military or home production.
 
They might be able to argue their case when the Allies decided to give the French a zone of occupation.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
The Canadians never fielded an army group in WWII. The Canadian 1st Army deployed in France in '44 contained 1 Canadian corps of 3 divisions with an additional corp of 2 divisions redeployed from Italy to France in the Spring of '45 (about March I believe). I can't see that Canada would ever have the manpower resources to do much more than that without serious impact upon other area's of their military or home production.

Okay...how about I edit "Army Groups" and put "Armies." Then we're happy.


As far as manpower, you're not taking into account the amount of folks that were left behind in Canada due to the way they ran conscription. They run it that way to this day: you have to volunteer twice to go overseas in the Canadian military right now: once to join and once again for overseas service. I know this because I did it when I went to the hot nougaty center of Asia.
Had they enacted a draft system like that that was run in America, they could've just picked people up and told them where to go.

That's the ASB part, though. That King could've just enacted draft legislation and the Quebecois would've sat their and taken it. You know, that they would've put up with getting treated like everyone else.


Order of battle for

1st Canadian Corps
--------------------
1st Canadian Infantry Division
1st Canadian Armoured Brigade
5th Canadian Armoured Division

2nd Canadian Corps
--------------------
2nd Canadian Infantry Division
3rd Canadian Infantry Division
2nd Canadian Armoured Brigade


So...basically, my logic (as ASB as it is) still holds up. If the Canadians could put in place a draft system similar to that of America's, then the logical place to put a second Corps was in Europe.
 
They might be able to argue their case when the Allies decided to give the French a zone of occupation.

That's true. The Canadian contribution to the war effort was immense (in proportion to its size). And it could be argued that the Canadians' contribution was much greater than that of the French. Yet for some reason, the French were given an occupation zone and the Canadians were not. With British support, I don't see why the Canadians would not be awarded an occupation zone of their own.
 
That's true. The Canadian contribution to the war effort was immense (in proportion to its size). And it could be argued that the Canadians' contribution was much greater than that of the French. Yet for some reason, the French were given an occupation zone and the Canadians were not. With British support, I don't see why the Canadians would not be awarded an occupation zone of their own.

Canada's cause would be helped if one of Vichy France's Nazi-wannabes had managed to oust Petain and bring their regime into the war as a Nazi ally. France having it's reputation ruined would leave them out of the running to occupy parts of Germany... (And would likely lead to France being occupied in much the same fashion by the British and the US...) Instead DeGaulle or LeClerc would be installed in Paris (after the war) as a US puppet and Canada would end up having to occupy quite a bit of West Germany.
 
Perhaps if Britain fell to Hitler after a successful Operation Sealion, then elements of the Government and military would successfully evacuate to Canada. Canada would become the base for "Free Britain" (instead of a dominion of the Empire) and as such would have more importance in the war and thus have a claim on an occupation zone in Germany.
 
Perhaps if Britain fell to Hitler after a successful Operation Sealion, then elements of the Government and military would successfully evacuate to Canada. Canada would become the base for "Free Britain" (instead of a dominion of the Empire) and as such would have more importance in the war and thus have a claim on an occupation zone in Germany.
But if that happens, the war will drag on for at least a few more years, and then there brobably won't be a Berlin to occupy.
 

Markus

Banned
In honour of Canada Day, I'm going to pitch this. The challenge, should you choose to except it, is to get a Canadian Zone of occupation in Berlin at the end of WWII. Subtle and/or cool wanking is allowed.

You are giving me ideas! THX a lot.
 
Interesting POD. Now, here's a possible wank. With Canada on the frontline of the Cold War and World War III, should it happenm the Canadian government contracts with Avro to build two versions of the Arrow, both as a long range patrol aircraft and a beefed up Arrow Mk.II to serve as a nuclear penetrator, in case the Cold War gets hot.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Interesting POD. Now, here's a possible wank. With Canada on the frontline of the Cold War and World War III, should it happenm the Canadian government contracts with Avro to build two versions of the Arrow, both as a long range patrol aircraft and a beefed up Arrow Mk.II to serve as a nuclear penetrator, in case the Cold War gets hot.

Dude...I really think the only reason no one's done a dedicated Avro Arrow project yet is because whoever tried would probably just end up destroying their keyboard by excessive teardrops onto it.

melvin loh said:
don't forget the Canadian army in Normandy also commanded the Polish Armd Div...

Also, 1st Canadian Corps was made up of a fair amount of British units. Whole divisions at one point, if I'm not mistaken. I have a book with orders of battle but my library isn't being cooperative. I can't find it at the moment.
 
The Occupation zones were not awarded as Brownie points, but out of political consideration - else you'd have a smattering of small zones.

Giving Canada an Occupation zone would mean that Canada is ready and has the means to permanently deploy several divisions in Germany in any foreseeable future. How did demobilization go in Canada ? Was it accelerated as in the US, or did Canada keep a high level of troops on war footing ?
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Giving Canada an Occupation zone would mean that Canada is ready and has the means to permanently deploy several divisions in Germany in any foreseeable future. How did demobilization go in Canada ? Was it accelerated as in the US, or did Canada keep a high level of troops on war footing ?

After WWII, Canada went from the 4th largest military in the world and the 3rd largest navy to...I can't even figure out how small they were by 1948.

They went down fast.

During the Cold War, the Canadian military deployed a formation in Germany known as (at various times) 3 or 4 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group.

Don't let the Brigade in 4 CMBG fool you. On the rolls of the the British Army of the Rhine, and of US VII Corps (the two larger units it was attached to) it was listed as a "light division" with ancillary air capability.
 
After WWII, Canada went from the 4th largest military in the world and the 3rd largest navy to...I can't even figure out how small they were by 1948.

They went down fast.

During the Cold War, the Canadian military deployed a formation in Germany known as (at various times) 3 or 4 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group.

Don't let the Brigade in 4 CMBG fool you. On the rolls of the the British Army of the Rhine, and of US VII Corps (the two larger units it was attached to) it was listed as a "light division" with ancillary air capability.

Then the first step to a standing Canadian Occupation zone in Germany (which would probably have to be partly in Berlin, and partly in West Germany, because IIRC occupation zones in Berlin were simply a consequence of the larger zones held by the four Powers) would be to have Canada keep a very high defense budget, and perhaps pass laws for a mandatory, long military service, as you point out.

Politics aside, could Canada's budget withstand that kind of pressure ?
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Then the first step to a standing Canadian Occupation zone in Germany (which would probably have to be partly in Berlin, and partly in West Germany, because IIRC occupation zones in Berlin were simply a consequence of the larger zones held by the four Powers) would be to have Canada keep a very high defense budget, and perhaps pass laws for a mandatory, long military service, as you point out.

Politics aside, could Canada's budget withstand that kind of pressure ?

Well, it's not the budget. The citizens just aren't going to put up with mandatory service. It's just a given. Believe me: it would take a pretty big piece of political wizardry on Mackenzie King's part to introduce a draft and sidestep a Zombie issue.

The Canadians can pretty much bring to the table what they could bring in an increased capacity in the alternate WWII: A Canadian Army Group made up of 2 Canadian Armies, then after WWII, if you round up the increased amount of folks who would stay and perhaps the fact that the government might be willing to let a few more units actually stay active as opposed to just deactivating them, you could only get an honest division to Germany (plus the Berlin garrison).

Canada has always been good at playing above it's weight, though. It's one of the top suppliers of troops to the UN, and it does this with a military that ranks (size-wise) down in the top-20s if not top-30s.
 
In strict realpolitik and monetary terms, it'd make more sense for French troops to occupy Germany than Canadian ones... They're just a few hundred kilometers away, and quite directly interested by whatever happens in Germany.

Why not solve Canada's potential manpower problem by making the zone a Franco-Canadian one, under Canadian military command, with French administrators in charge of the civilian questions that Occupation forces also had to deal with at the time ?

Military forces deployed in the zone would be partly Canadian, partly French, allowing Canada to demobilize part of its army and to avoid friction with the Québec politicians.
 
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