Challeneg:Make the Reqconquista fail

Parrots88

Banned
With a POD between 711 and 1492 AD,make the Reconquista a failure.The Christian nation may still survive and even liberate areas of the Iberian peninsula but not to end Islamic presence in the peninsula.Also,what would be the implication of such a failure on the colonisation of the Americas? Inter religious relations in the Iberian peninsula? North Africa and the expansion of the Ottoman empire?
 
With a POD between 711 and 1492 AD,make the Reconquista a failure.The Christian nation may still survive and even liberate areas of the Iberian peninsula but not to end Islamic presence in the peninsula.Also,what would be the implication of such a failure on the colonisation of the Americas? Inter religious relations in the Iberian peninsula? North Africa and the expansion of the Ottoman empire?

Okay, this battle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Las_Navas_de_Tolosa is a devastating loss to the Christian kingdoms, who are unable to recover for a long time. On the other hand, the Almohads have always been more interested in their African holdings, so eventually this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Hud or his descendents conquer Al-Andalus.

The colonization of the Americas...not happening from Iberia that's for sure. Portugal is the least effected, relatively speaking, but that's mostly because its all with Atlantic coastline. How things settle down is hard to say, but the Christian kingdoms are not strong enough or united enough to take Al-Andalus, nor is it strong enough to occupy all of Iberia.

Depending on events to the east there probably won't be an Ottoman Empire - and North Africa is its own state.
 
Okay, this battle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Las_Navas_de_Tolosa is a devastating loss to the Christian kingdoms, who are unable to recover for a long time. On the other hand, the Almohads have always been more interested in their African holdings, so eventually this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Hud or his descendents conquer Al-Andalus.

The colonization of the Americas...not happening from Iberia that's for sure. Portugal is the least effected, relatively speaking, but that's mostly because its all with Atlantic coastline. How things settle down is hard to say, but the Christian kingdoms are not strong enough or united enough to take Al-Andalus, nor is it strong enough to occupy all of Iberia.

Depending on events to the east there probably won't be an Ottoman Empire - and North Africa is its own state.


It is funny how the Reconquista is seen as something that did not affect Portugal.I have even seen maps which describe this scenario in which muslims retake the whole of the iberian peninsula except Portugal (that is a christian kingdom)!
A defeat in Las Navas de Tolosa would have been devastating to Castille, Portugal and Aragon. Leon would not have suffered as they did not participate in the battle. Almohads could have advanced north threatening Toledo and recovering a lot of land from Castille and Portugal and even in the Mediterranean from Aragon. Eventually the tide would be stopped and Leon could take the leadership of the Reconquista with Portugal and Castille as junior partners (maybe they could be absorbed if their kings were killed or captured at Las Navas).
 

Parrots88

Banned
Okay, this battle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Las_Navas_de_Tolosa is a devastating loss to the Christian kingdoms, who are unable to recover for a long time. On the other hand, the Almohads have always been more interested in their African holdings, so eventually this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Hud or his descendents conquer Al-Andalus.

The colonization of the Americas...not happening from Iberia that's for sure. Portugal is the least effected, relatively speaking, but that's mostly because its all with Atlantic coastline. How things settle down is hard to say, but the Christian kingdoms are not strong enough or united enough to take Al-Andalus, nor is it strong enough to occupy all of Iberia.

Depending on events to the east there probably won't be an Ottoman Empire - and North Africa is its own state.
Interesting scenario.I was always thinking of the Reconquista as a semi miracle due to the strong nation the Christian kingdoms had to fight against and the long time it took them to accomplish the task (800 years during which a lot could happen that would turn the gasme to the Moorish favor)
 
It is funny how the Reconquista is seen as something that did not affect Portugal.I have even seen maps which describe this scenario in which muslims retake the whole of the iberian peninsula except Portugal (that is a christian kingdom)!
A defeat in Las Navas de Tolosa would have been devastating to Castille, Portugal and Aragon. Leon would not have suffered as they did not participate in the battle. Almohads could have advanced north threatening Toledo and recovering a lot of land from Castille and Portugal and even in the Mediterranean from Aragon. Eventually the tide would be stopped and Leon could take the leadership of the Reconquista with Portugal and Castille as junior partners (maybe they could be absorbed if their kings were killed or captured at Las Navas).

Well, Portugal is in a position where its least impacted in regards to colonization - assuming it isn't eaten up - was the point I was trying to make.

Woudln't Navarre also be screwed by this? Not territorially, necessarily - but a major military defeat can't be too good for the kingdom.
 

Parrots88

Banned
It is funny how the Reconquista is seen as something that did not affect Portugal.I have even seen maps which describe this scenario in which muslims retake the whole of the iberian peninsula except Portugal (that is a christian kingdom)!
A defeat in Las Navas de Tolosa would have been devastating to Castille, Portugal and Aragon. Leon would not have suffered as they did not participate in the battle. Almohads could have advanced north threatening Toledo and recovering a lot of land from Castille and Portugal and even in the Mediterranean from Aragon. Eventually the tide would be stopped and Leon could take the leadership of the Reconquista with Portugal and Castille as junior partners (maybe they could be absorbed if their kings were killed or captured at Las Navas).
Well,for almost half the period of the Reconquista Portugal was either Muslim or under Leonese suzerainity but by 1212 they were an independent kingdom.They might have lost Lisbon again and pushed back to Oporto in case of Almohad victory in Tolosa but they would probably be the least affected,the local taifa rulers would be busy grabbing land from Castile and Aragon and the Almohads themselves,having secure Al-Andalus would probably cocentrate on either Mali or North Africa.
 

Parrots88

Banned
Well, Portugal is in a position where its least impacted in regards to colonization - assuming it isn't eaten up - was the point I was trying to make.

Woudln't Navarre also be screwed by this? Not territorially, necessarily - but a major military defeat can't be too good for the kingdom.
Navarre was more connected to France than Iberia in that point if my memory serves me right.
 

Parrots88

Banned
Possibly, not sure. But it did go to war here.
Yes,they were one of the first participants in the Reconquista and the only Christian nation that didn't gain anything from it and were semi-vassalised by France and Aquitaine before that.
 
Well,for almost half the period of the Reconquista Portugal was either Muslim or under Leonese suzerainity but by 1212 they were an independent kingdom.They might have lost Lisbon again and pushed back to Oporto in case of Almohad victory in Tolosa but they would probably be the least affected,the local taifa rulers would be busy grabbing land from Castile and Aragon and the Almohads themselves,having secure Al-Andalus would probably cocentrate on either Mali or North Africa.
Why less affected? Would the almohads forget them for some reason? Their army and king has just been defeated in Las Navas?

In that scenario I see two winners the almohads that stop (or delay) the Reconquista and Leonese that would recover lost terrain in Portugal and Castille.
 

Parrots88

Banned
Why less affected? Would the almohads forget them for some reason? Their army and king has just been defeated in Las Navas?

In that scenario I see two winners the almohads that stop (or delay) the Reconquista and Leonese that would recover lost terrain in Portugal and Castille.
Beacuse the task of recovering lost land would proably go to the Taifa rulers.The Almohad went to Al-Andalus to ''help'' local rulers to push the Cjristian nations back.The Taifa rulers would probably want to capture Toledo and Seville since they were important taifas during the 11th century and Portugal wasn't that attractive at the time unlike the riches of Toledo.
 
Beacuse the task of recovering lost land would proably go to the Taifa rulers.The Almohad went to Al-Andalus to ''help'' local rulers to push the Cjristian nations back.The Taifa rulers would probably want to capture Toledo and Seville since they were important taifas during the 11th century and Portugal wasn't that attractive at the time unlike the riches of Toledo.
Why again?

The almohads have entered the Peninsula in order to restore the power of deaying muslim power. The Taifas were corrupt and weak to their eyes, they have defeated a coalition of christian kings, why would they leave the control to the corrupt Taifa kings. Why would they spare the dominions of one of the defeated kings?

For them it was not a matter of richesses. They were religious fanatics.

Moreover you forget the Niebla Taifa (in Algarve and Huelva).
 

Parrots88

Banned
Why again?

The almohads have entered the Peninsula in order to restore the power of deaying muslim power. The Taifas were corrupt and weak to their eyes, they have defeated a coalition of christian kings, why would they leave the control to the corrupt Taifa kings. Why would they spare the dominions of one of the defeated kings?

For them it was not a matter of richesses. They were religious fanatics.

Moreover you forget the Niebla Taifa (in Algarve and Huelva).
Algarve was still in Muslim hands by that point.
 
Why not have Eleanor of Aquitaine married to a King of Castile..having Aquitaine and Castile merged could cause the problems with France which might make Castile weaker..marrying her to Barcelona and Navarre might just make France bigger.
 
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