CH: Full On Meritocracy Before 1900

Killer300 · Oct 17, 2012

Basically, have a country that is fully meritocratic. No bloodlines, or other forms outside of the skill tests and the like of inheriting power. Hence, China isn't this, although it got close at points.

And I mention China because you have to do this before 1900. Singapore doesn't count, because that was after 1900, and was actually quite recent it got a meritocratic government structure.

So yes, provide a government that is entirely meritocratic. Not sure how difficult this is, but I'm sure AH.Com can do it.

Alex Richards · Oct 17, 2012

Sounds like you essentially need Confucian beaurocratic process (with all the examinations and so forth) in a republic. China's probably out due to the strength of the Mandate of Heaven concept. but perhaps a republican Korea or Japan?

Killer300 · Oct 17, 2012

No chance of this happening in Europe I guess?

But yeah, those sound like possibilities, however, you'll have to remove the monarchy in either somehow.

LSCatilina · Oct 17, 2012

FOr the "no bloodlines things" : did the fact that only elites can afford a secular education (for avoiding religious-based exams that can't fit meritocracy) counts?

If yes : you'll have quickly bloodlines based on economic situation and/or derogations.
If not : I don't see how or too low exams will manage to create a government.

Killer300 · Oct 17, 2012

LSCatilina said:
FOr the "no bloodlines things" : did the fact that only elites can afford a secular education (for avoiding religious-based exams that can't fit meritocracy) counts?

If yes : you'll have quickly bloodlines based on economic situation and/or derogations.
If not : I don't see how or too low exams will manage to create a government.

No, as it will just create bloodlines all over again, which is outside a full blown meritocracy.

Gorm the Old · Oct 17, 2012

Killer300 said:
No, as it will just create bloodlines all over again, which is outside a full blown meritocracy.

Considering all the informal advantages people can have, a full blown meritocracy seems like a near impossibility. Especially before 1900. Minorities, whether sexual, ethnic or otherwise are unlikely to actually get a fair shake, even if the law says they're equal. The power accumulated by the majority, and the elites in particular, will always skew the results in their favor. Consider this; who are the people responsible for making the meritocratic tests?

B_Munro · Oct 17, 2012

That applies to American meritocracy as well: who does better on college entrance exams or SATs or whatever? The poor student with a part-time job and no resources, or the rich man's kid who can affort tutors and the best professional cram schooling for the exams?

Bruce

Avitus · Oct 17, 2012

Go for a corruption free papacy, and then since they can't have offspring it would be pretty much meritocratic I believe.

B_Munro · Oct 17, 2012

Avitus said:
Go for a corruption free papacy, and then since they can't have offspring it would be pretty much meritocratic I believe.

The Pope is chosen by the cardinals, whose definitions of "merit" may differ widely. (In some cases "merit" has been interpreted as "old and will die soon, so _my_ favored candidate will have another shot although I couldn't get the votes this time!) In any event, how on earth do you get a "corruption free" papacy? There are other forms of corruption besides nepotism...

Bruce

Killer300 · Oct 17, 2012

Okay, true. And it looks like I'm aiming for perfect.

For now, lets aim for eliminating nepotism. So, perhaps the meritocracy are Eunuchs, or similar.

Gorm the Old · Oct 17, 2012

B_Munro said:
That applies to American meritocracy as well: who does better on college entrance exams or SATs or whatever? The poor student with a part-time job and no resources, or the rich man's kid who can affort tutors and the best professional cram schooling for the exams?

Yeah, that's just one of the things that show the idea of meritocracy being more than an ideal as a lie. It's a good ideal to strive for though.

Killer300 said:
Okay, true. And it looks like I'm aiming for perfect.

For now, lets aim for eliminating nepotism. So, perhaps the meritocracy are Eunuchs, or similar.

Even if the perfect you're aiming for is not really possible, a society wide acknowledgment of that impossibility might actually be a bonus. It's a good counter-message to the messaging from the elites, who are likely to attempt to counter the meritocracy, to entrench their own bloodlines.

RGB · Oct 17, 2012

Killer300 said:
Okay, true. And it looks like I'm aiming for perfect.

For now, lets aim for eliminating nepotism. So, perhaps the meritocracy are Eunuchs, or similar.

Eunuchs and nepotism would not be at odds with each other provided families are large enough.

Killer300 · Oct 18, 2012

RGB said:
Eunuchs and nepotism would not be at odds with each other provided families are large enough.

This doesn't counter, however, that Eunuchs can't have children, hence, can't quite as easily pass on power through blood.

Elfwine · Oct 18, 2012

Eunuches do it with their brother's son(s) instead.

Regardless, the vital question; How is merit determined?

If one believes the idea that the nobility and royalty were inherently better suited to the job of ruling, aristocracy (which after all means rule by the best) is meritocratic.

And devising a test to show how someone would handle governing would be remarkably hard. It's like having a test to see how someone will handle parenting, only worse.

If I'm not mistaken, the Chinese system was more concerned for your knowledge of the classics than merit in the sense of "Famine breaks out. How do you organize a response/""

Killer300 · Oct 18, 2012

Elfwine said:
Eunuches do it with their brother's son(s) instead.

Regardless, the vital question; How is merit determined?

If one believes the idea that the nobility and royalty were inherently better suited to the job of ruling, aristocracy (which after all means rule by the best) is meritocratic.

And devising a test to show how someone would handle governing would be remarkably hard. It's like having a test to see how someone will handle parenting, only worse.

If I'm not mistaken, the Chinese system was more concerned for your knowledge of the classics than merit in the sense of "Famine breaks out. How do you organize a response/""

For this, here's an idea.

Have it be a knowledge test in areas like math and reasoning, so that it's independent of blood.