CH: Continental Europe One Country

Actually, I do want to last into the 2000s, so either have someone succeed in the 20th century somehow, or you're going to have to have someone like the Romans succeed for awhile.:p
 
Actually, hmm. A good Soviet wank could easily get all of mainland Europe, however I wonder how long they could actually keep it? For how, well, Soviets respond in time, and then steamroll Nazis all the way to France.

The Soviets centre of power is so far from France that any Soviet conquest of Europe would inevitably have it (as well as Italy and anything else much past their OTL conquests, although they'd probably be willing to invest a substantial amount keeping Germany down) as friendly clients at best. They just don't have the manpower of economic strength to maintain a sustainable hegemony.
 
Well... maybe with worker councils instead of command economics, and Tuckavesky... no, you're right, puppets, not outright state conquering.:(

Well, back to the going back thousands of years and making Europe unrecognizable.:(:p
 
Actually, I do want to last into the 2000s, so either have someone succeed in the 20th century somehow, or you're going to have to have someone like the Romans succeed for awhile.:p

Given that I can't see anyone unifying europe as a single _state_ rather than as a federation or a hegemon and vassals after 1500, and the extreme unlikeliness of pre-modern all-Europe empires lasting that long...oy you've made this hard.

(BTW, Soviets aren't going to make all of Europe into one state rather than puppets: it would just be ungovernable, and the "loyal" Great Russians would be badly outnumbered. If they tried, it would never last to 2012.)

Edit: oops, Ninja'd.

Bruce
 
Hm. Mongols reach central europe, raid France, take a lot longer to fall apart than OTL: unified Franco-British monarchy at war with them on and off for centuries, expands eastwards into crumbling fringes of Khanate... hm. Not going to be very welcome in the Balkans, there's still the Iberians, and the Scandinavians...once again, we've got hegemon and vassals.

A Hellenic Greek conquest of much of Europe? The Greeks seem likelier than the rather stolid Romans to come up with a sophisticated ideology for a "service class" that could serve as a basis for a reviving empire on the Chinese model - but on the other hand, the Greeks OTL were curiously bad at spreading their language outside of their core territories. The Alexandrians invent the printing press? Of course, expansion into Northern Europe would be a pain...

Bruce
 
Hm. Mongols reach central europe, raid France, take a lot longer to fall apart than OTL: unified Franco-British monarchy at war with them on and off for centuries, expands eastwards into crumbling fringes of Khanate... hm. Not going to be very welcome in the Balkans, there's still the Iberians, and the Scandinavians...once again, we've got hegemon and vassals.

A Hellenic Greek conquest of much of Europe? The Greeks seem likelier than the rather stolid Romans to come up with a sophisticated ideology for a "service class" that could serve as a basis for a reviving empire on the Chinese model - but on the other hand, the Greeks OTL were curiously bad at spreading their language outside of their core territories. The Alexandrians invent the printing press? Of course, expansion into Northern Europe would be a pain...

Bruce

Maybe somehow a butterflied Rome leads to a shattered Western Mediterranen, leaving something like Macedonia to gradually expand throughout Europe. Still I think it is impossible...
 
Well... maybe with worker councils instead of command economics, and Tuckavesky... no, you're right, puppets, not outright state conquering.:(

Well, back to the going back thousands of years and making Europe unrecognizable.:(:p

You might be able to get a(n entirely nominal) European federation if you have independant communist revolutions in two major countries without a land border (Say, France and surviving PLC, Germany and Russia, etc) that agree after the revolution to form a international communist government as the precursor the Global Revolution. Then you just need to have the rest of Europe be somehow conquered (which will involve near-ASB levels of luck) with different nations as different Federated states. Just keep all splits int the realm of jockeying for influence and keep all the state willing to intervene in each other in case of revolution, and you could probably maintain a polite fiction of a unified Europe for several decades.
 
WAIT! That's it!

Communist Revolts in UK, Germany, and Russia will do it! Those three, if they can work together, could Europe. UK's navy, Russia's resources and Germany's... land access.
 
WAIT! That's it!

Communist Revolts in UK, Germany, and Russia will do it! Those three, if they can work together, could Europe. UK's navy, Russia's resources and Germany's... land access.

Yeah, and the odds of three successful revolutions? And those revolutions all being led by people who will cooperate in an all-Europe project? It's like hoping to get rich by a gold meteor landing in your back yard... :)

Bruce
 
Yeah, and the odds of three successful revolutions? And those revolutions all being led by people who will cooperate in an all-Europe project? It's like hoping to get rich by a gold meteor landing in your back yard... :)

Bruce

This is an unlikely scenario to begin with. Is this really tipping the scales that much more?:p

Also, to be fair, I've heard that the UK was pretty close to having a Syndicalist Revolt at certain points. Germany is easy, just have Sparticist Revolt work out(relatively speaking.) Now, getting them to work together? Well... doable, but still difficult.
 
How about something a little more radical...

Operation Big Bad Europe:

La Tene culture fails to happen/spread. The Etruscans succeed in maintaining hegemony over Northern Italy/Rome, and spread their dominion to include all peoples related to Etruscans (Illyrian Veneti, Veneti of Italy, Veneti of Noricum, Rhaetians), and all of the Italic speakers of the peninsula. Athens attacks Sicily during the Peloponnesian War, loses, then the Etruscans conquer and pacify Magna Graecia. While digesting, the strength of the Getai and other tribes in the area of Thrace (due to the absence of Celtic intrusion) keep Macedon from unifying into a powerful state and it remains a collection of warring families and kingdoms.

The Etruscans colonise southern Gaul and conquer Massalia around the 370s BC, exploiting the resources and intensifying agricultural production. This causes a migration of Gauls (not Celts due to the lack of La Tene culture, but clearly somebody was living in Gaul beforehand) towards Germany. Iberians sense opportunity and move into modern Aquitaine, whilst themselves remaining without unification. Sensing an irritating presence and being a military superpower, the Etruscans take no chances and attack the Iberian tribes from land and sea. Aquitaine is taken from them, as is OTL Navarre, Asturias, and Catalonia. A bad time hits the Etruscans as a newly resurgent Achaemenid Empire defeats a pan-Hellenic expedition and reasserts control over Macedon, the Aegean, Ionia, and parts of northern Greece; at the same time, the Carthaginians decide that enough is enough and pursue aggression against the Etruscans around 280 BCE.

The plucky Etruscans win the long war with Carthage that follows, taking control of Punic Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica. Carthage instead turns to African expansion, and begins to colonise the coast of OTL Mauretania. Afterwards, the noble Etruscans rescue Greece from the new Achaemenid Empire, the price being Etruscan hegemony over the Hellenes. When Etruscan interests clash with Epirote ones, the Federation of Epirus is crushed, and Greece realises what a master it has acquired. The Greeks attempt to break free, lose, and the price is brutal. Athens, Sparta, Corinth and Thebes are all put to the torch. Etruscan garrisons become permanent. The final large Hellenic bastion of resistance to the Rasna, Syrakuse, is finally brought low in 175 BC.

The reliance of Etruscan on slaves and warfare has resulted in social movements that result in several long-lasting civil and philosophical conflicts due to the power of military commanders, which transforms the traditional oligarchical-kingship model of the Etruscan state into a true Imperial state. This also results in greater integration of the Alpine, Italian and Illyrian regions of the Empire. During this time the Empire expands to include all of Iberia, for its great mineral wealth. The final phase of the First Etruscan Empire sees its borders expand to cover all of Gaul in a series of bloody campaigns that end in 135 BC.

The aging Achaemenid Empire finally collapses, into the Indo-Persian state; the new regime spreads Buddhism across its domains, and the religion then spreads through Greece into the Etruscan realms. The religion is pernicious, and the Etruscan Empire begins to actively persecute it. But it is unable to do so, and eventually a Buddhist Emperor comes to the throne in 111 AD. Being a little unpalatable with traditional Rasna virtues, he heavily modifies Buddhist canon and theology into a form that results in greater social control; the Emperor is a single enlightened soul, willingly sacrificing his choice to remove himself from the cycle of reincarnation in order to allow the Etruscan citizens to achieve nirvana. However, the invasion of Gallo-Germanic tribes of 'Borgondione' culture was disastrous; Gaul was removed entirely, large parts of Illyria and the Alps were overrun, and for a time Greece was also threatened. For almost two centuries, the Etruscan Empire fractured, as Bordongione languages spread across Europe.

The rise of a new and strong dynasty signalled a change. The peoples of Dacia and Thrace were brought into the fold of the Etruscan Dharma as allies against the Borgondiones, the vast gold and silver reserves of the Empire were used to pay for large auxiliary armies. Illyria and the Alps were again made part of the Dharma, and soon the Danube was the new Imperial eastern frontiers. Soon, even Borgondione cultures were on the Rasna payroll. Those Germanic tribes considered conducive to the Dharma were spared, those not were brutally enslaved. The Etruscan domains now touched the Baltic sea. Of western Europe, now only Pritannike remained. The domains of Gaul became one of the most densely inhabited parts of the Empire, and with its renewed agricultural development able to feed a large population.

Haven taken this example thus far, you can see where it's going. Etruscan Buddhist culture glues its domains together whilst still allowing for local traditions, no other Empires are particularly interested in attacking it, and its huge military presence precludes much rebellion. After several dips, growths, slides, barbarian invasions, civil wars, by around 1000 AD or so it has taken over the whole of continental Europe aside from Scandanavia, Russia, and the Bosporus. Civil wars last, the Empire splits, but always the Guardian Emperor of the Rasna returns in a mortal form and re-unites the Dharma of Europe. Philosophy develops quicker than OTL, but technology and economic developments are regressed by the nature of the state and so Europe only achieves Industrial Era techology in the 20th-early 21st Century.

A little tongue in cheek, but I doubt that any suggestion for a real timeline uniting Europe will require any less blind luck. Part of why Europe is difficult to unite is dumb luck, like the pattern of migrations being responsible for certain population densities and cradles of civilization, but much of the rest is from practical factors; climate, geography, and relative feeding capacity of land before certain technologies are introduced. Any PoD that unites Europe needs to be old. I think my 600-500 BC PoD for this sample timeline is actually still too recent.
 
This is an unlikely scenario to begin with. Is this really tipping the scales that much more?:p

Well, it's not going to improve people's opinion of the seriousness of this thread ...


Also, to be fair, I've heard that the UK was pretty close to having a Syndicalist Revolt at certain points. .

Very unlikely to succeed anywhere close to OTL: probably need major early 19th century divergences.

Germany is easy, just have Sparticist Revolt work out(relatively speaking.).

Pretty hard, actually, for something you say is "easy." And by changing things enough to get the UK to have a successful revolt, we've butterflied away our WWI, not to speak of the Sparaticists.

Now, getting them to work together? Well... doable, but still difficult.


So who's leading the Russian revolution? Twilight Sparkle? :p

Bruce
 
Okay, unlikely combination, I concede that. Point is, to get Europe, you need this combination, judging by the World Wars.

1. A powerful naval country.

2. A country with access to massive resources and/or manpower.

3. A third country well geographically placed may be a bonus, or not. Really depends.
 
Haven taken this example thus far, you can see where it's going. Etruscan Buddhist culture glues its domains together whilst still allowing for local traditions, no other Empires are particularly interested in attacking it, and its huge military presence precludes much rebellion. After several dips, growths, slides, barbarian invasions, civil wars, by around 1000 AD or so it has taken over the whole of continental Europe aside from Scandanavia, Russia, and the Bosporus. Civil wars last, the Empire splits, but always the Guardian Emperor of the Rasna returns in a mortal form and re-unites the Dharma of Europe. Philosophy develops quicker than OTL, but technology and economic developments are regressed by the nature of the state and so Europe only achieves Industrial Era techology in the 20th-early 21st Century.
.

Interesting notion, although I don't see why they don't invade Africa at some point, unless the Carthaginians establish their own Senegal-Sinai "Eternal Empire." As you say, creating an alt-China in europe will lead to a pretty unrecognizeable Europe...

Bruce
 
How about something a little more radical...

Operation Big Bad Europe:

La Tene culture fails to happen/spread. The Etruscans succeed in maintaining hegemony over Northern Italy/Rome, and spread their dominion to include all peoples related to Etruscans (Illyrian Veneti, Veneti of Italy, Veneti of Noricum, Rhaetians), and all of the Italic speakers of the peninsula. Athens attacks Sicily during the Peloponnesian War, loses, then the Etruscans conquer and pacify Magna Graecia. While digesting, the strength of the Getai and other tribes in the area of Thrace (due to the absence of Celtic intrusion) keep Macedon from unifying into a powerful state and it remains a collection of warring families and kingdoms.

The Etruscans colonise southern Gaul and conquer Massalia around the 370s BC, exploiting the resources and intensifying agricultural production. This causes a migration of Gauls (not Celts due to the lack of La Tene culture, but clearly somebody was living in Gaul beforehand) towards Germany. Iberians sense opportunity and move into modern Aquitaine, whilst themselves remaining without unification. Sensing an irritating presence and being a military superpower, the Etruscans take no chances and attack the Iberian tribes from land and sea. Aquitaine is taken from them, as is OTL Navarre, Asturias, and Catalonia. A bad time hits the Etruscans as a newly resurgent Achaemenid Empire defeats a pan-Hellenic expedition and reasserts control over Macedon, the Aegean, Ionia, and parts of northern Greece; at the same time, the Carthaginians decide that enough is enough and pursue aggression against the Etruscans around 280 BCE.

The plucky Etruscans win the long war with Carthage that follows, taking control of Punic Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica. Carthage instead turns to African expansion, and begins to colonise the coast of OTL Mauretania. Afterwards, the noble Etruscans rescue Greece from the new Achaemenid Empire, the price being Etruscan hegemony over the Hellenes. When Etruscan interests clash with Epirote ones, the Federation of Epirus is crushed, and Greece realises what a master it has acquired. The Greeks attempt to break free, lose, and the price is brutal. Athens, Sparta, Corinth and Thebes are all put to the torch. Etruscan garrisons become permanent. The final large Hellenic bastion of resistance to the Rasna, Syrakuse, is finally brought low in 175 BC.

The reliance of Etruscan on slaves and warfare has resulted in social movements that result in several long-lasting civil and philosophical conflicts due to the power of military commanders, which transforms the traditional oligarchical-kingship model of the Etruscan state into a true Imperial state. This also results in greater integration of the Alpine, Italian and Illyrian regions of the Empire. During this time the Empire expands to include all of Iberia, for its great mineral wealth. The final phase of the First Etruscan Empire sees its borders expand to cover all of Gaul in a series of bloody campaigns that end in 135 BC.

The aging Achaemenid Empire finally collapses, into the Indo-Persian state; the new regime spreads Buddhism across its domains, and the religion then spreads through Greece into the Etruscan realms. The religion is pernicious, and the Etruscan Empire begins to actively persecute it. But it is unable to do so, and eventually a Buddhist Emperor comes to the throne in 111 AD. Being a little unpalatable with traditional Rasna virtues, he heavily modifies Buddhist canon and theology into a form that results in greater social control; the Emperor is a single enlightened soul, willingly sacrificing his choice to remove himself from the cycle of reincarnation in order to allow the Etruscan citizens to achieve nirvana. However, the invasion of Gallo-Germanic tribes of 'Borgondione' culture was disastrous; Gaul was removed entirely, large parts of Illyria and the Alps were overrun, and for a time Greece was also threatened. For almost two centuries, the Etruscan Empire fractured, as Bordongione languages spread across Europe.

The rise of a new and strong dynasty signalled a change. The peoples of Dacia and Thrace were brought into the fold of the Etruscan Dharma as allies against the Borgondiones, the vast gold and silver reserves of the Empire were used to pay for large auxiliary armies. Illyria and the Alps were again made part of the Dharma, and soon the Danube was the new Imperial eastern frontiers. Soon, even Borgondione cultures were on the Rasna payroll. Those Germanic tribes considered conducive to the Dharma were spared, those not were brutally enslaved. The Etruscan domains now touched the Baltic sea. Of western Europe, now only Pritannike remained. The domains of Gaul became one of the most densely inhabited parts of the Empire, and with its renewed agricultural development able to feed a large population.

Haven taken this example thus far, you can see where it's going. Etruscan Buddhist culture glues its domains together whilst still allowing for local traditions, no other Empires are particularly interested in attacking it, and its huge military presence precludes much rebellion. After several dips, growths, slides, barbarian invasions, civil wars, by around 1000 AD or so it has taken over the whole of continental Europe aside from Scandanavia, Russia, and the Bosporus. Civil wars last, the Empire splits, but always the Guardian Emperor of the Rasna returns in a mortal form and re-unites the Dharma of Europe. Philosophy develops quicker than OTL, but technology and economic developments are regressed by the nature of the state and so Europe only achieves Industrial Era techology in the 20th-early 21st Century.

A little tongue in cheek, but I doubt that any suggestion for a real timeline uniting Europe will require any less blind luck. Part of why Europe is difficult to unite is dumb luck, like the pattern of migrations being responsible for certain population densities and cradles of civilization, but much of the rest is from practical factors; climate, geography, and relative feeding capacity of land before certain technologies are introduced. Any PoD that unites Europe needs to be old. I think my 600-500 BC PoD for this sample timeline is actually still too recent.

Why do all butterflied Rome TLs result in Buddhist Europe? :mad:
 
Because I was seeing how many AH-cliches we could get into the one timeline. I'm amazed you went for that first and not for me sneaking Inevitable Burgundy into there!
 
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