CF-105 Arrow's little brother

What it says in the title. You all know the sad story of the CF-105 that many of you love, but what if they ran a more or less paralel "CF-106" program, with same aerodynamics but smaller, cheaper and single engine, just like Dassault did in the sixties with it's Mirage family?

You can have the CF-105 live or not as well if you so wish, but could this CF-106 be a huge success? I can see it competing in the market with the light and single engines fighters of the sixties, F-104, F-5, MiG-21, Mirage-III and 5 and in best case scenario i can imagine it as a best seller. Would it be in time to kill most of F-104s market?
 
What it says in the title. You all know the sad story of the CF-105 that many of you love, but what if they ran a more or less paralel "CF-106" program, with same aerodynamics but smaller, cheaper and single engine, just like Dassault did in the sixties with it's Mirage family?

You can have the CF-105 live or not as well if you so wish, but could this CF-106 be a huge success? I can see it competing in the market with the light and single engines fighters of the sixties, F-104, F-5, MiG-21, Mirage-III and 5 and in best case scenario i can imagine it as a best seller. Would it be in time to kill most of F-104s market?
In your view who would fund the development of this aircraft ? Who would buy the initial batch of production aircraft ?

Without a customer prepared to pay for these items I don't see this project getting very far. I'm doubtful that the RCAF would have been willing or able to run a CF106 program in parallel with the historical CF105 program.


Even if these issues were hand waved away they would still need to compete against aircraft such as the Mirage III and the F104 along with competing against the sales and marketing efforts of other companies such as Lockheed and Dassault. I believe this would have been an up hill battle for Avro Canada.


At least the CF105 had the destinction of being a bespoke heavy weight supersonic interceptor. Differentiating a notional CF106 would be even harder in my view.
 
I think with a single Iroquois, 30 thousand pounds thrust full reheat, you're talking more Thunderchief class than any of the smaller fighters you've mentioned.

I can't see it being that affordable at all for small air forces and a tough sell for Canadair.

Still worth exploring though and a better bet than the CF-105 which was really too big for anyone to take on.

Only the Russians put anything similar into service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-28.
 
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The F-5 wasn't single-engined. Neither is this one. The RCAF asked for the OTL Arrow and Avro Canada responded. The Arrow would have filled a recognized Canadian mission requirement and the CF-104 only fitted a politically assumed mission. It would have been better if the Avro Jetliner had a career. A CF-106 probably would have been as successful as the F-20 Tigershark, as the Arrow was as successful as the F-108.
 

Archibald

Banned
A subscale Arrow keeping a single PS-13 Iroquois would be a powerful aircraft. It would be very similar to the F-106. Then it depends whether it is developed as an interceptor or as a multirole aircraft. I can see it stealing some sales from the Mirage III as it would be longer ranged and twice as much powerful. Keeping the Iroquois would be very important for export: Viggen sales were blocked by its american engine.

Imagine if a F-106 and Mirage III had a night affair. An aircraft a little smaller than the F-106 and multirole like the Mirage III, but packing the power of the mighty PS-13 Irquois.
It could carry a crapload of A2G ammunitions or a decent load of AAMs.

It would be better if it kept two seats like the CF-105 (and Phantom). Single-seat ground attack aircrafts of the60's - 70's tended to overload their lone pilot.
 
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CF-105 = Canuck replacement so complement it with the CF-106 Quarrel (Crossbow Bolt) to replace the Canadair Sabres in 1st Air Division. That's the only way I can think of doing it.

The only nation to buy the CF-100 was Belgium which bought 4 squadrons worth. They might buy the CF-105 had it not been cancelled and offered a good enough price. The Belgians might be persuaded to build the Quarrel under licence instead of the Starfighter and Mirage 5.

Then offer the Luftwaffe a bigger bribe than Lockheed. They'll cry all the way to the bank when @Just Leo points out that the Quarrel is another super plane with none of the development and reliability difficulties that real aeroplanes have.
 

GarethC

Donor
I'm a bit shaky on whether the timescales fit, but could a production version of the C104/4 prototype be ready to fill the orders from Israel and India that OTL went to Dassault for the Mystere? Admittedly that needs some... shenanigans, to put it mildly, but all's fair in love, war, and arms exporting, surely?
 
I think HM Canadian Government was more ethical than most. I'm out and don't have access to my copy of Green and Fricker, but I seem to remember Israel ordering Canadair Sabres and HMCG (and I don't mean the British Coast Guard) terminating the contract because of the Suez Crisis. The Israeli Government bought French aircraft at that time because AFAIK they were the only people that would sell them. But even they cancelled the Mirage 5 order because of the Six Day War.
 
I'll go the whole hog on this...

The CF-105 isn't cancelled. Enough are built to equip 25 squadrons on a Unit Equipment (U.E.) of 18 aircraft each, which means 450 for the U.E. plus another 150 for "backing" which is the operational training units, maintenance and reserves to replace attrition for a total of 600. The 25 squadrons consist of 21 in RCAF Air Defence Command (9 regular and 12 RCAuxAF). The Royal Belgian Air Force buys enough to equip its 4 Canuck squadrons. After realising that a massive mistake was made in the 1957 Defence Review, HMG allows the RAF to buy some to replace the Javelin in the first half of the 1960s.

At the same time a specification is issued for a single engine fighter to replace the Sabres in 1st Air Division. However, because Avro Canada is busy with the Arrow, the contract for what became the Quarrel went to Canadair so no R&D or production synergy. However, Quarrel used the same engines as the Arrow. Total production for the first-generation Quarrel for the RCAF was 238 aircraft (200 single-seat and 38 two-seat) to equip 8 squadrons in 1st Air Division, plus the prototypes.

(To please @Just Leo) the early Quarrels flew like pigs with an even higher accident rate than the Starfighter. And that was when their appalling serviceability rates allowed them to fly.

However, that didn't stop Canadair winning the NATO fighter competition with a sales technique called, "offering bigger bribes than the competition." As a result 113 were built for Belgium, 915 for Germany, 354 for Italy and 138 for the Netherlands. The Japanese also built 230 Quarrels instead of the F-104J. With the Starfighter out of production the US Government was forced to buy Canadair built Quarrels for China (Taiwan), Denmark, Greece, Norway, Spain and Turkey under MDAP or supply Freedom Fighters.

The second-generation Quarrel spent less time on the ground and when it was in the air was less prone to crash landings. The RCAF (no Unification ITTL) bought 135 as attrition replacements instead of the Freedom Fighters of OTL. The Dutch bought 105 instead of their OTL Freedom Fighters and the Belgians built 106 in their factories instead of the Mirage 5.

In the meantime the RAAF had selected the Quarrel to replace the Commonwealth Sabre in preference to the Mirage III.

BAC took out a licence on the Quarrel which it offered to the RAF as an alternative to the P.1154 to replace the Hunter FGA Mk 9 and FR Mk 10. This was offered with modifications to improve its STOL performance and a choice of the original Iroquois engine built under licence by Rolls Royce or the Spey still being developed for the F-4K Phantom ITTL. The Spey-Quarrel won and over 300 were built for the RAF in place of the OTL Harrier Mks 1 to 4 and Jaguar.
 
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Archibald

Banned
I wonder how small one could get with a single Ps-13 IRoq
I think HM Canadian Government was more ethical than most. I'm out and don't have access to my copy of Green and Fricker, but I seem to remember Israel ordering Canadair Sabres and HMCG (and I don't mean the British Coast Guard) terminating the contract because of the Suez Crisis. The Israeli Government bought French aircraft at that time because AFAIK they were the only people that would sell them. But even they cancelled the Mirage 5 order because of the Six Day War.

By 1954 Israel very badly needed something better than their Meteor F4 to counter Arabs Mig-15s. They wanted F-86s but at the time America wasn't Israel best friend (only after 1967). So they turned to Canada for CL-13s but under pressure Canada refused to sell them Sabres. So they went to France and got a contract for 30 Mystere II - but that aircraft was a pile of shit and a death trap (even Dassault has its black sheeps).
Mystere IVs were far, far better but not immediately available so Israel got Ouragan as a stopgap... and they fought Suez '56 with them.
The Ouragan wasn't that bad against MiGs and got a handful of air to air victories, although it was a pig to handle - heavy controls and bad mnoeuverability. Agressive and well trained Israeli pilots filled Ouragan flaws.

Now an interesting whatif would be Israel asking Australia for Avon Sabres. Avon Sabres in IDF markings, now that would be cool.

As usual Wikipedia has a list.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dassault_Mirage_III_operators
Just hand pick up customers from that list :p
Bottom line: any breakthrough in South America results in a domino effect and massive sales.
 
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P.S.

ITTL the RCAF was allowed to replace the Arrow with Tomcats fitted with Orenda's successor to the Iroquois. This engine was also fitted to the aircraft Grumman sold to Iran. This was the cause of considerable envy to the USN Tomcat pilots that had to make do with the OTL F-14A.
 

Archibald

Banned
I have to develop my own Arrow TL someday (anybody interested ?) I have this TL rough outline in my head for at least 15 years.

The POD would be that by 1955 the Arrow would have the exact same radar and missiles as the F-102 and F-106 (Hughes MG-10 thing).
Not only this saves a crapload of money, three years later it also helps integrating the Arrow into NORAD (Sparrow II was AMRAAM in the 50's which is just unfeasible).

The Arrow survives Diefenbaker and enters limited service late 1959.

Meanwhile the F-108 Rapier is still cancelled in September 1959 making its powerful radar and missile orphans. Then, by 1960 and instead of B-58 "Snoopy" (and later YF-12), the U.S military decides to flight test the AN/ASG-18 and AIM-47 Falcon on a pair of Arrow prototypes.

B-58-Snoopy.jpg


Flash forward to 1967, YF-12 scrapping and the MiG-25 shock and panick. Hello, the AN/ASG-18 / AIM-47 Arrow is the one and only interceptor in the world able to kick the MiG-25 ass (until F-14 and F-15 but only later)
As such, by 1971 both Israel and Iran orders Arrow to beat the Soviet Mig-25R that spy them.

Meanwhile Avro Canda has spent the 60's making the Arrow more versatile. With its large size and internal bomb bay the Arrow is an even better bomb truck than the Phantom and manages to steal some foreign orders from OTL Phantoms.
(and as usual, Wikipedia has a list - just hand pick possible Arrow users from it !)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_F-4_Phantom_II_non-U.S._operators

I can see Spain, they bought Mirage along with U.S types. Maybe U.K, but it might be tricky. Greece perhaps.
 
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Thank you all for your ideas. I was reading that initially RCAF prefered an F-105 powered by an Iroquois before selecting the CF-104, so there is that.

To further expand the options, how about a baby Iroquois engine in the 20,000lb class (call it PS14)? This might mean though a THIRD airframe design, let's call it the CF-107. So they now have 3 airframe and two engine designs to cover all bases. At least some of them would live, surely! Again Dassault did engage in such paralel development of various large and small airframes with one or two engines.

Perhaps the CF-107 will be bought instead of the CF-5 to replace the Sabre, while earlier the CF-105 could still be bought instead of the F-101 while instead of the CF-104 they buy the Republic F-105 with the PS13 engine or of course the CF-106. I know this is a megawank of RCAF and Canadair but still a cool possibility to ponder.

One of the reasons for the PS14 idea was to give Mirage F1 and even Mirage-III/5 a better engine, they always lacked in that respect with the anemic Atar 09K, though in this TL the Mirage would probably not be so succesful in sales as CF-106/107 would eat some of it's customers. Also was France interested in the Iroquois at some point?
 

Archibald

Banned
France did consider the Iroquois in 1958 among with Olympus and J-75 and RB-142 to power a bigger Mirage IV, the Mirage IV-B, which was the size and range of a B-58 Hustler except with two engines.
The J-75 was prefered but the Mirage IV-B went nowhere. Eventually Mirage IV-A+ ATAR + C-135FR was prefered, if only because the ATAR was French, unlike the J-75, so the Mirage IV couldn't be grounded by Uncle Sam.
 
Meanwhile the F-108 Rapier is still cancelled in September 1959 making its powerful radar and missile orphans. Then, by 1960 and instead of B-58 "Snoopy" (and later YF-12), the U.S military decides to flight test the AN/ASG-18 and AIM-47 Falcon on a pair of Arrow prototypes.

Problem I see here, is that Convair was already trying to sell an upgraded F-106 with the better Radar and performance.

No Orders.
 

Archibald

Banned
Ok, but this is strictly an experimental testbed. The Arrow larger size than a F-106 helps carrying the big radar and missiles (AIM-47 won't fit into a F-106 bay, but the Arrow missile bay was bigger). The Arrow size is a nice in-between a F-106 (too small) and a YF-12 / B-58. Speed above Mach 2.5 is a dead end.
 
sorry to be a sourpuss here, but the CF 105, for all its potential was a specific Canadian plane built for a specific Canadian task and even if it were to use radar, engines, equipment etc. more in line with other countries, it would still not be usable for most of the other NATO or even independent countries. The CF 105 was never intended to do dogfights over Western Europe. Instead it was built specifically to hurl itself at full speed at anything that came in from the arctic circle and intercept it before it reached any of the bigger and more souhtern Canadian cities. As such, the only other countries that could even use the plane were Australia and Brazil and only if they had Russia as a neighbor.... Or Russia itself.

Of course it is fun to speculate how things would have worked out if instead of a heavy interceptor Canada developed a lightweight dogfighter like the F5 or the Mirage. Problem is that this would have to be decided so early in the development of the Cf105-XL (or CF-106 if you want) that the resulting plane would not even look like the CF-105. So you can just as easily post a picture of a repainted Saab Viggen then of a scaled-down CF 105. The resulting aircraft could just as easily look like the first then the latter.
 
Ok, but this is strictly an experimental testbed. The Arrow larger size than a F-106 helps carrying the big radar and missiles (AIM-47 won't fit into a F-106 bay, but the Arrow missile bay was bigger). The Arrow size is a nice in-between a F-106 (too small) and a YF-12 / B-58. Speed above Mach 2.5 is a dead end.


On February 9, 1968, the Defense Department announced that they were not going to purchase the Lockheed F-12A interceptor, opting instead to remain with the F-106 as the primary interceptor to protect the continental USA from air attack.

On September 3, 1968, Convair issued a proposal for an "improved" interceptor that was to be designated F-106E/F. It was to be compatible with the upcoming airborne warning and control systems as well as with the over the horizon radar defense network. The F-106E/F would have had a longer nose, with a new and improved radar with a look-down/shoot-down tracking and missile launch capability. It would also have had a two-way UHF voice and datalink radio. It would be capable of launching both nuclear and non-nuclear missiles, including the AIM-26 Nuclear Falcon and the AIM-47.

Unfortunately for Convair, this project never got off the drawing board. http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f106_4.html
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