Centralization and success of the Staufen Empire: ways and means

I can see a centralized state emerging in the same sense that Capetian France and Plantagenet England were centralized.

Where my disbelief kicks in is the survival all the way to modern times. Too big, too many nationalities, too many language areas.

How?

Is it bigger than the US or Russia?

How many nationalities does it really have considering that "Greater Germany" and (north-central) Italy are the vast bulk of Imperial territority and the OTL issues where Austria (or the Netherlands) are not part of Germany aren't happening?

Languages?

Let's see: We have German (several dialects of, so?). We have Southern French. We have (Northern) Italian. We have Czech (maybe). We have Greek/Southern Italian. And...your point is?

I'm not sure why this will be a problem if the Staufen can make the first two centuries or so (~1200 to 1400) work well enough to bind the parts together at all.
 

The Sandman

Banned
To what extent would earlier and more extensive canal-building and maintenance in Germany help reduce the communications lag issues you're all discussing?

As far as dealing with problematic nobles is concerned, to what extent can the Emperor or the Pope force specific rulers to go crusading? The Mongols would also work well as a noble-disposing service when they arrive in the 1200s.

And would there be any way to create separate Staufen-ruled Kingdoms that would form a layer of governance between the Empire and the individual demesnes? Say one for southern and central Italy, one for northern Italy and southern Germany, and one for northern Germany? Then arrange the inheritance of such so that the thrones rotate between Staufen branches rather than forming new, separate lineages.
 
To what extent would earlier and more extensive canal-building and maintenance in Germany help reduce the communications lag issues you're all discussing?

I'm not sure, but I'd estimate not very much. Might be well worth the money spent but it doesn't sound like it would speed up messages and armies, though I could be wrong.

As far as dealing with problematic nobles is concerned, to what extent can the Emperor or the Pope force specific rulers to go crusading? The Mongols would also work well as a noble-disposing service when they arrive in the 1200s.

The Pope has some ability to do it, but its unlikely in the extreme that the Pope would pick Hohenstaufen opponents for it except by chance.

And how are the Mongols going to serve in this regard? Ask the Dukes of Bavaria (picking on Bavaria because no one remembers the Wittelsbachs) to go lead an army to its death? :D

And would there be any way to create separate Staufen-ruled Kingdoms that would form a layer of governance between the Empire and the individual demesnes? Say one for southern and central Italy, one for northern Italy and southern Germany, and one for northern Germany? Then arrange the inheritance of such so that the thrones rotate between Staufen branches rather than forming new, separate lineages.

In the sense of kingdoms and realms, the Holy Roman Empire is divided as follows OTL (all the duchies and such fit within one of the following):

The Kingdom of Germany, which is roughly equally to Greater Germany

The Kingdom of Burgundy

Italy - northern and central.

The Duchy of Bohemia (later kingdom of), which has its own ruler (the above three are part of the HRE as a state and I think the wearer of the imperial crown has all three by default)

Sicily, which is the southern part.

I think this kind of break up you propose would result in Kievan-Rus styles problems, possibly worse.

Maybe I'm just feeling pessimistic, but it strikes me as weakening unity rather than creating it, and certainly not helping centralization.
 
I'm with Elfwine on this issue. I suspect that what has been proposed here could lead to the consolidation of states within the Empire, but would not result in these larger states agreeing to form a more centralized empire.
 
As I see it:

The thing is that there's nothing preventing the Staufen from addressing both Italian and German problems. Both are basically solvable with the right solutions.

The problem that is why I think this ultimately is overambitious is that the Staufen will have to periodically drop dealing with German problems to deal with Italian ones and vice-versa.

Which is why in my timeline Conrad IV chooses autonomous but tax-paying Italy to the campaigning necessary to make Imperial rule unquestioned, because said campaigning would get in the way of his administrative developments.

Its not that he can't launch those campaigns. Its not even that he can't win those campaigns. But in a decision between "setting up the foundations for Imperial bureaucracy", and "enforcing a greater level of control over the governance of the Italians", the former was chosen.

Any emperor in his shoes, or his father's, or his grandfather's, or his son's, will have to make that sort of choice - with consequences which range from relatively minor (Italy is still part of the Empire, it just has a greater level of self-rule with the Emperor intervening as overseer more than overlord) to things like how OTL Frederick II sacrificed the regalia for support now.

If this scenario considers an Italy that is part of the Empire but with considerable freedom as acceptable, it is doable. If it is necessary for Milan to be as independent of Imperial rule as Nuremburg, something will break. I don't know what something, and I don't know when. But that is too much.

The other side of things though is that there's no real reason the Italians will mind being part of the same state as the Germans or vice-versa. At least not in this period (and by the period it comes up, the empire will be well established).

What the Staufen have a problem with is (for instance) Milan wanting more autonomy to the point of being answerable to the Emperor in name only, if that, not the Kingdom of Italy being uniteable but refusing to merge with the Kingdom of Germany.

Hopefully this is as clear to the reader as it is to me. If anything looks weird, questionable, etc. please ask for clarification.
 

The Sandman

Banned
I'm not sure, but I'd estimate not very much. Might be well worth the money spent but it doesn't sound like it would speed up messages and armies, though I could be wrong.

Well, I would hope it would speed up armies, simply by virtue of having them transported on a boat and thus being relatively well-rested when they have to march the last few miles to their destination. Messages might benefit from similar circumstances, although a Pony Express might be a better option for a courier service.

The Pope has some ability to do it, but its unlikely in the extreme that the Pope would pick Hohenstaufen opponents for it except by chance.

How much influence might the Emperor be able to use on the Pope to convince him to send certain people on crusade?

And how are the Mongols going to serve in this regard? Ask the Dukes of Bavaria (picking on Bavaria because no one remembers the Wittelsbachs) to go lead an army to its death? :D

Of course not! You're asking them to go lead an army to glorious victory against the heathens!

The fact that they'll get slaughtered and take their most loyal supporters with them is just an unfortunate consequence of this. ;)


In the sense of kingdoms and realms, the Holy Roman Empire is divided as follows OTL (all the duchies and such fit within one of the following):

The Kingdom of Germany, which is roughly equally to Greater Germany

The Kingdom of Burgundy

Italy - northern and central.

The Duchy of Bohemia (later kingdom of), which has its own ruler (the above three are part of the HRE as a state and I think the wearer of the imperial crown has all three by default)

Sicily, which is the southern part.

I think this kind of break up you propose would result in Kievan-Rus styles problems, possibly worse.

Maybe I'm just feeling pessimistic, but it strikes me as weakening unity rather than creating it, and certainly not helping centralization.

I'm with Elfwine on this issue. I suspect that what has been proposed here could lead to the consolidation of states within the Empire, but would not result in these larger states agreeing to form a more centralized empire.

Well, that's a definite risk. What I was hoping was that it might reduce some of the command and control issues you've raised by federalizing the Empire. Keeping all of these states under the rule of the same family would be an attempt to give them some reason to care about both each other and the Emperor (also from their family), while the rotating inheritance scheme is designed to prevent any specific branch of the family from getting ideas about running a kingdom for their own good rather than the good of all of the Staufens.

Rigging the election so that the Emperor-ship stays within the Staufen line would be the trickiest bit, since you'd initially need to do this in such a manner as to avoid provoking a massive revolt from all the lesser rulers of the Empire.
 
Well, I would hope it would speed up armies, simply by virtue of having them transported on a boat and thus being relatively well-rested when they have to march the last few miles to their destination. Messages might benefit from similar circumstances, although a Pony Express might be a better option for a courier service.

There might be something to that, but I'm not familiar enough with canals to know how much you could do with that.

How much influence might the Emperor be able to use on the Pope to convince him to send certain people on crusade?
Generally not much. The Papacy and the Emperor are not on good terms in this period. But other than that? Potentially a great deal.

The main problem with sending opponents on crusade is that you (the Staufen and other secular rulers) don't want one to come back victorious and covered in glory. That just backfires.

Of course not! You're asking them to go lead an army to glorious victory against the heathens!

The fact that they'll get slaughtered and take their most loyal supporters with them is just an unfortunate consequence of this. ;)

Magnificent bastardry is a perquisite for success, yes.
:D

Not sure if this is the right place for getting an army killed off, though. But finding a way to manipulate the ambitious to get themselves killed would be very useful, and the Mongol invasion happening to kill off opponents would be an extremely well disguised blessing. :D

Well, that's a definite risk. What I was hoping was that it might reduce some of the command and control issues you've raised by federalizing the Empire. Keeping all of these states under the rule of the same family would be an attempt to give them some reason to care about both each other and the Emperor (also from their family), while the rotating inheritance scheme is designed to prevent any specific branch of the family from getting ideas about running a kingdom for their own good rather than the good of all of the Staufens.

Rigging the election so that the Emperor-ship stays within the Staufen line would be the trickiest bit, since you'd initially need to do this in such a manner as to avoid provoking a massive revolt from all the lesser rulers of the Empire.
Well, you could make the Emperorship hereditary - Henry VI almost did OTL.

As for your idea of the family: The Habsburgs seem to have been able to establish a "we're all Habsburgs" thing. Not sure how they nurtured that, but the Staufen doing that and having young brothers and such as viceroys (but not actual kings) might do what you're thinking of.

As for command and control though, the main problem is not so much command of (for instance) Palermo as that if something breaks out there, its far away from the Emperor.
 
Well, that's a definite risk. What I was hoping was that it might reduce some of the command and control issues you've raised by federalizing the Empire. Keeping all of these states under the rule of the same family would be an attempt to give them some reason to care about both each other and the Emperor (also from their family), while the rotating inheritance scheme is designed to prevent any specific branch of the family from getting ideas about running a kingdom for their own good rather than the good of all of the Staufens.

Rigging the election so that the Emperor-ship stays within the Staufen line would be the trickiest bit, since you'd initially need to do this in such a manner as to avoid provoking a massive revolt from all the lesser rulers of the Empire.

Every state of the empire is first and foremost self-interested and th leaders of each of the larger states will want more influence for themselves. Rigged imperial elections will result in civil wars, anti-kings, and Papal paramountcy, all of which run counter to the aims of the OP.
 
Something that really needs to be kept in mind: There are no all but independent "states" within the HRE in the Middle Ages, in the sense of post-1648.

There are the dukes and other lords within Germany and the Italian cities (some city-states), but they're all bound - legally speaking - to obey and serve the emperor.

The problem the Staufen have is turning that into something that leads to a united state, instead of OTL's result of being a coalition at best and an anarchy at worst.
 
Something that really needs to be kept in mind: There are no all but independent "states" within the HRE in the Middle Ages, in the sense of post-1648.

There are the dukes and other lords within Germany and the Italian cities (some city-states), but they're all bound - legally speaking - to obey and serve the emperor.

The problem the Staufen have is turning that into something that leads to a united state, instead of OTL's result of being a coalition at best and an anarchy at worst.

That is true. The Westphalian conception of statehood does not yet exist, but dukes and counts in Germany and Italy are still at this time more autonomous and self-serving than those in France and the Spanish kingdoms during the same span of time.
 
That is true. The Westphalian conception of statehood does not yet exist, but dukes and counts in Germany and Italy are still at this time more autonomous and self-serving than those in France and the Spanish kingdoms during the same span of time.

I am not sure. Dukes and counts were pretty autonomous and self-serving from one end of the continent to the other.

The problem seems to be that the Staufen are juggling a lot more in trying to beat them into compliance than say, France's kings.

Its not as if the Capets had an easy time, even counting the Angevins as a special case.
 
I am not sure. Dukes and counts were pretty autonomous and self-serving from one end of the continent to the other.

The problem seems to be that the Staufen are juggling a lot more in trying to beat them into compliance than say, France's kings.

Its not as if the Capets had an easy time, even counting the Angevins as a special case.

That's a good point I suppose. Still, the distances discussed here are rather further than those from one end of France to the other.
 
That's a good point I suppose. Still, the distances discussed here are rather further than those from one end of France to the other.

Indeed.

Its not just bad luck that went wrong. OTL isn't the best possible outcome, but its the least surprising.
 
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