Centralization and success of the Staufen Empire: ways and means

[Eurofed]

This is a topic that recently saw an otherwise interesting and productive discussion, but IMO was spoiled by an excessively strict and legalistic definition of the Hohenstaufen empire's borders.

So, I'd like to reframe the topic: what would have the Staufen Emperors have to do in order to establish imperial authority and turn the HRE into a successful centralized state (in the period sense) on the model of Capetian France and Plantagenet England that endures up to modern times ?

For the purpose of this discussion, the Staufen HRE necessarily includes the Kingdom of Germany with the Duchy of Bohemia (its rise to a Kingdom is butterflied away ITTL), the Kingdom of Italy, the Kingdom of Burgundy/Arles, the Kingdom of Sicily, the Duchy of Pomerania (being assimilated by the HRE in the Staufen timeline), the Duchy of Silesia (ditto), the Duchy of Greater Poland (it follows the course of Silesia ITTL), Pomerelia (ditto), Venice and Istria, Sardinia and Corsica, Romagna, the March of Ancona, and the Duchy of Spoleto (all assimilated in the HRE as part of the establishment of imperial authority in Italy).

The Papacy may (or may not) keep control of the Patrimony of St. Peter (the Duchy of Rome), but that's the maximum extent of the Papal domains ITTL.

It is assumed as part of the divergence that:

- Henry VI succeeds at making the crown hereditary and he lives another 20-25 years

- Frederick II is raised to think of himself as an Emperor first and king of Sicily second and he lives as long as IOTL or slightly longer (half a decade or so)

- the Empire suffers no dynastic crisis until the early 14th century, Conrad IV and Conrad V proving to be sufficiently competent and long-lived like their ancestors

- the Emperors efficiently split their attention and energies between Germany and Italy-Sicily, never focusing on one section too much and too long at expense of their authority in another

- Sicily may be kept de jure separate from the HRE for a while, for political reasons, but de facto is an integral part of the Empire, and eventually it is legally merged with it

- the HRE does not engage in excessively lengthy and costly wars and mostly focuses on its own state-building during the 13th century, although it is not bound to an isolationist foreign policy

In your opinion what else would be necessary, if any, for the Staufen to establish imperial authority on firm foundations that could and did endure and grow still further as time permitted like the Angevins and Capetians did ?

And what significant changes do you foresee likely happening to Europe and the world as a result of the Staufen HRE's success ?

 

[abc123]

This is a topic that recently saw an otherwise interesting and productive discussion, but IMO was spoiled by an excessively strict and legalistic definition of the Hohenstaufen empire's borders.

So, I'd like to reframe the topic: what would have the Staufen Emperors have to do in order to establish imperial authority and turn the HRE into a successful centralized state (in the period sense) on the model of Capetian France and Plantagenet England that endures up to modern times ?

For the purpose of this discussion, the Staufen HRE necessarily includes the Kingdom of Germany with the Duchy of Bohemia (its rise to a Kingdom is butterflied away ITTL), the Kingdom of Italy, the Kingdom of Burgundy/Arles, the Kingdom of Sicily, the Duchy of Pomerania with (being assimilated by the HRE in the Staufen timeline), the Duchy of Silesia (ditto), the Duchy of Greater Poland (it follows the course of Silesia ITTL), Pomerelia (ditto), Venice and Istria, Sardinia and Corsica, Romagna, the march of Ancona, and the Duchy of Spoleto.

The Papacy may (or may not) keep control of the Patrimony of St. Peter (the Duchy of Rome), but that's the maximum extent of the Papal domains ITTL.

It is assumed as part of the divergence that:

- Henry VI succeeds at making the crown hereditary and he lives another 20-25 years

- Frederick II is raised to think of himself as an Emperor first and king of Sicily second and he lives as long as IOTL or slightly longer (half a decade or so)

- the Empire suffers no dynastic crisis until the early 14th century, Conrad IV and Conrad V proving to be sufficiently competent and longeve like their ancestors

- the Emperors efficiently split their attention and energies between Germany and Italy-Sicily, never focusing on one section too much and too long at expense of their authority in another

- Sicily may be kept de jure separate from the HRE for a while, for political reasons, but de facto is an integral part of the Empire, and eventually it is legally merged with it

- the HRE does not engage in excessively lengthy and costly wars and mostly focuses on its own state-building during the 13th century, although it is not bound to an isolationist foreign policy

In your opinion what else would be necessary, if any, for the Staufen to establish imperial authority on firm foundations that could and did endure and grow still further as time permitted like the Angevins and Capetians did ?

And what significant changes do you foresee likely happening to Europe and the world as a result of the Staufen HRE's success ?

Well, technology in that period wasn't favouring so big countries like HRE. After all, it fell apart ( OTL ) because the centripetal forces were too strong.

But, if somehow HRE can really survive, the butterflies would be immense.

 

[Eurofed]

Well, technology in that period wasn't favouring so big countries like HRE. After all, it fell apart ( OTL ) because the centripetal forces were too strong.

Really, no. A main reason of its failure was a really awful streak of bad luck burdening it with a couple crippling dynastic crises at terrible timing.

Please keep that kind of un-constructive OTL-determinism out of this thread.

But, if somehow HRE can really survive, the butterflies would be immense.

Yes, this is an easy guess. But what kind of butterflies are most likely ?

 

[abc123]

Really, no. A main reason of its failure was a really awful streak of bad luck burdening it with a couple crippling dynastic crises at terrible timing.

Please keep that kind of un-constructive OTL-determinism out of this thread.



Yes, this is an easy guess. But what kind of butterflies are most likely ?

Are you sure that HRE really ever had a chance to become a unified country? Streching from Sicily to Baltic? And from Burgundy to Poland?

 

[Eurofed]

Are you sure that HRE really ever had a chance to become a unified country? Streching from Sicily to Baltic? And from Burgundy to Poland?

This thread is for those who are able and willing to accept it as a feasible possiblity and are interested to discuss its ways, means, and consequences.

 

[abc123]

This thread is for those who are able and willing to accept it as a feasible possiblity and are interested to discuss its ways, means, and consequences.

Fine with me.

 

[Janprimus]

IMHO it wasn't that strict, it depended on the ruler and on whether a De Jure or a De Facto definition was preferred. While I didn't prefer a solution with Sicily I didn't exclude it either (I mentioned it). Whatever what, I wish you good luck, I know (trust me) that sometimes a Thread\TL develops different then you think.

Anyway IMHO the hardest part remains to convince the high nobility of the HRE to give up their right to elect their monarch, that, no matter what, will take concessions and will be a source of discontent.

 

[Xgentis]

Germanic wank...

 

[Eurofed]

Anyway IMHO the hardest part remains to convince the high nobility of the HRE to give up their right to elect their monarch, that, no matter what, will concessions and will be a source of discontent.

IOTL it got very close to be approved within Henry VI's brief reign, in exchange for recognition of the hereditary succession for secular princes and of the capacity for inheritance by the female line. I have every confidence that had Henry VI lived longer, it would have been eventually approved. At most it would take as little a divergence as the then Archbishop of Cologne, Adolf of Altena, dying earlier.

 

[Eurofed]

Germanic wank...

If we really have to go by nationalistic labels, Germanic-Italian wank. The two main HRE nationalities shall always be too balanced in demographic and economic weight for one to assimilate the other (for Czechs, Poles, Slovenians etc. of course it shall be another matter entirely, in all likelihood they shall get thoroughly assimilated, while Romance-speaking Burgundians shall merge with Italians). But the success of the HRE is much more likely to mean a de-wank of European nationalism at large, and be more similar to a neo-Roman/Carolingian wank in character. E.g. there are very good chances that Latin gets entrenched as the imperial lingua franca of administration, culture, and trade.

 

[Wendell]

Is this intended as a means of building a united Europe?

 

[LordKalvan]

Just a not-so-minor nitpick: Venice proper (the original islands in the lagoon plus some mainland towns like Grado and Chioggia) was never a part of the HRE (nor of the Carolingian empire, btw). However, Venice had in its domain lands which were part of the HRE (Istria, the Patriarchate of Aquileia, Padua, Verona and so forth). It might be arguable, from a legalistic standpoint, that Venice was part of the ERE: obviously, the ERE did not have any real political control on Venice since the 7th century.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

Just a not-so-minor nitpick: Venice proper (the original islands in the lagoon plus some mainland towns like Grado and Chioggia) was never a part of the HRE (nor of the Carolingian empire, btw). However, Venice had in its domain lands which were part of the HRE (Istria, the Patriarchate of Aquileia, Padua, Verona and so forth). It might be arguable, from a legalistic standpoint, that Venice was part of the ERE: obviously, the ERE did not have any real political control on Venice since the 7th century.

Of course, in the Staufen era Venice had yet to expand onto the terra firma.

 

[LordKalvan]

Of course, in the Staufen era Venice had yet to expand onto the terra firma.

Venice already controls southern Istria (which is in the HRE) and the cities of Dalmatia (the status of which is much less clear), but even if the doge holds some territories as imperial fiefs the HR emperor is not the overlord of Venice.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

Venice already controls southern Istria (which is in the HRE) and the cities of Dalmatia (the status of which is much less clear), but even if the doge holds some territories as imperial fiefs the HR emperor is not the overlord of Venice.

Dalmatia is definitely not within the HRE of 961.

 

[Eurofed]

Venice may not have been legally a part of the HRE, but in the geopolitical context of the establishment of imperial authority in Italy, it is all but sure that at some point, Venice would be forced to recognize its overlordship. With the Empire controlling the Venetian mainland and the naval assets of Genoa, Pisa, and Sicily, the likely alternatives to vassaldom would be much less pleasant for Venice, with its rivals within the imperial framework being otherwise quite eager to cut it down.

 

[Eurofed]

Is this intended as a means of building a united Europe?

Not necessarily, and certainly not in the Middle Ages, although in the very long term it might reasonably easily come to that. By itself, a successful Staufen empire (or for that matter, a successful Plantagenet/Capetian Franglia) would not have the resources (administrative, military, political) to unify Europe in the premodern period. It would however be powerful enough to become the unquestioned dominant power in Europe, unless a rival of comparable might (such as, again, Franglia, a revitalized ERE, or a more successful OE or Russia) rises in parallel to check it.

It would however reduce European political fragmentation enough that the right dynastic union with another power (e.g. Charles V's empire but with Germany and Italy long since united in the first place, and so much stronger and more manageable) would make it reach the critical mass to do it in early modern/early industrial times.

It would also be strong enough that it might fairly easily (but by no means necessarily) unify Europe with a successful set of wars once the resource multipliers created by the Industrial Revolution are set into place. Also because it would necessarily butterfly away the hard decline that 17th-18th Germany and Italy suffered IOTL, and so the HRE would be an excellent candidate to take the lead of the Industrial Revolution.

 

[Elfwine]

The main problem with this is going to be that the more the Empire commits to, the more thinly the Staufen have to spread their extremely (not uniquely, but that's not the point) finite resources - specifically, they're gaining more enemies than allies, internally and externally, the more they try to bite off.

I'm not saying this is impossible - but while the Staufen can relatively easily acquire men and money, securing an area that has decided - for one of any of the reasons that someone would object - is going to drain a certain amount of competent and loyal men, money, and Imperial attention.

- the Emperors efficiently split their attention and energies between Germany and Italy-Sicily, never focusing on one section too much and too long at expense of their authority in another

is just fundamentally limited. No matter how hard the Staufen try, they literally cannot be everywhere at once, and to a greater or lesser degree, have to be.

If they - like the Capets - can build a loyal group of royal agents that can act in their name and stand in their place, a lot of the issue with simply maintaining a medieval state is made manageable - but doing that is going to be challenging. Where do they get these men?

The Capets drew on "members of the lesser nobility, knights, burgesses, or clerks holding minor dignities" as a rule. Can the Staufen manage to attract a sufficiently large - and for something the size of the Staufen Empire, that's not a small number - group of individuals who can do this and maintain their loyalty and dedication to the crown?

The other thread covers other things that need to be addressed as much here as with a more restricted definition of what the Empire in question is.

Sufficient to say, the Staufen really, really also need a healthy dose of sheer luck. Rivals dying (and it not being something that can be used against them), imperial inheritances/escheated land (to the extent that this can be managed - crown land is not automatically responsive to every wish of the emperor, its just land directly at the emperor's disposal instead of only accessible through a vassal), modest popes, successful crusades...

The list can be extended if you like, but the point is that there are basically two things - in the broadest sense - that need to happen.

1) The Staufen have to be up for the challenge. This has to mean that the Staufen can rely on their sons - not just their heirs, among other things.

2) Things outside their control have to turn in their favor, or at least not turn drastically against them.

Just as a successful crusade will boost Imperial prestige, a failed crusade will be devastating to the Emperor - St. Louis was a lucky king despite his misfortunes.

3) This is hard to define properly, but the Staufen cannot make additions to their state - either royal lands, Staufen lands, vassal lands, whatever - that they can't manage. Otherwise things will collapse more or less like OTL simply because the Emperor cannot control it all.

 

[Wendell]

It seems as if it would be easier to try and really unite Germany or Italy but not both.

 

[Eurofed]

It seems as if it would be easier to try and really unite Germany or Italy but not both.

No, no, no, and again, no. One of the reasons this thread exists is to purposefully and most emphatically rule out this kind of possibility for the scenario. Read the terms of the OP and do not try and defy the purpose of the exercise.