Central Powers victory map 1920.
- Thread starter Fatt Shea
- Start date
Well those lands were already occupied by the British army who had done very week against them previous to that.
Deleted member 109224
When in 1918?
Britain had Baghdad and Jerusalem by the end of 1917. The first US Troops showed up in France in June 1918; by which point Kirkuk and Jericho had fallen (which also occurred before Brest-Litovsk) but the Ottomans still held Galilee, Samaria, Amman, Al-Salt, Amman, and Mosul.
The Arabs were sitting in Aqaba and I don't think they'd be inclined to give it back. Perhaps the British could be negotiated out of the war in exchange for recognizing Britain's gains, and the Ottomans would be left a free hand to go after the Kingdom of Hijaz.
Britain had Baghdad and Jerusalem by the end of 1917. The first US Troops showed up in France in June 1918; by which point Kirkuk and Jericho had fallen (which also occurred before Brest-Litovsk) but the Ottomans still held Galilee, Samaria, Amman, Al-Salt, Amman, and Mosul.
The Arabs were sitting in Aqaba and I don't think they'd be inclined to give it back. Perhaps the British could be negotiated out of the war in exchange for recognizing Britain's gains, and the Ottomans would be left a free hand to go after the Kingdom of Hijaz.
I don't think France would be allowed to keep Algeria and Tunisia. Perhaps Britain could occupy them after an overrun France hands them over. Also I'm not sure the Ottomans could control that many Mediterranean islands. Even if Italy gets knocked out of the war, the Royal Navy would stop them. If the Royal Navy isn't in a position to stop the Ottomans from controlling those islands, then the war would probably be going badly enough for Britain that we could see a United Ireland. Unlike Germany, which could use Belgium as a bargaining chip to get its colonies back, I don't think the Ottomans had much to bargain with.
In this map, the Germans bargained using Belgium on the Ottomans' behalf. Also taking the Italian islands happens after the war with the UK is over, as part of the treaty with Italy, so Britain wouldn't just occupy it. Also I don't think Germany could take so much from France, I don't think it would be agreed to by France and the UK.
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It is in early 1918, say January. Also the CP victory is caused by America not joining, I know the British occupied that much of the Ottomans' lands but I had them give some back but keep southern Iraq and Palestine and Jordan in the peace settlement. Do you think it would be more likely that they would take all of the land that hey had occupied in the war?
Deleted member 109224
If peace is in January, Ukraine and Belarus should be part of Russia. The USSR only surrendered those lands with the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk in March of 1918.
Britain didn't control northern Palestine or the northern 2/3 of Jordan in January or March 1918. My guess is the British would hold onto Baghdad and Jerusalem.
You are right... I have made many mistakes. I was wrong to say January, that is illogical. I have not thought this through enough. I will ammend my map.
I like the map generally, yes, how much Britain grabs of Turkey is dependent on the date of peace. And yes I think Britain would want to keep Turkey off the Red Sea and Persian gulf for her future security of the oil and the canal.
However. I don't think the British would allow a peace where the Germans are in Morocco. Too much risk of submarine bases close to the important sea lanes, so I would look for Germany to make gains more in central africa.
However. I don't think the British would allow a peace where the Germans are in Morocco. Too much risk of submarine bases close to the important sea lanes, so I would look for Germany to make gains more in central africa.
Deleted member 109224
An Independent Morocco might be possible, but a German Morocco would not be.
Paradoxer
Banned
I feel like eastern borders are most likely to change or be re arranged by Germans. Much of that depends on how civil war in Russia goes. If imperials or even makeshift army of refugees and exiles from Russia organized by Germans within their puppets(“black army” doing Bay of Pigs type of invasion but times 10 against the bolsheviks across massive border with indirect and maybe direct German aid) then Russia might get some lands back or at least its Asia holdings Japanese don’t take(I see ottomans getting screwed big and possible still losing to UK who takes out its defeats on them to get “even” somewhat or “peace with honor”).
The Russians might get back eastern Belarus while Poland gets its other half. Belarus is not best or most self sustaining nation. Belarus likely don’t last decade or two if that. Ukraine might be forced to give back some land too. The Baltic will basically be ruled by German minority there and be most loyal puppet so they might get its claims over Pale settlements and favorable deals with territorial exchanges. Also Jews rather probably live under Baltic Union dominated by Germans over Poland. I see Lithuania being merged into Baltic Union eventually.
The irony of German puppets in East Ukraine identity is not overly strong especially before USSR famines alienated much of population along with conflicts in later decades. Belarus is literally little Russia and lacks strong identity at all. The differences between Ukrainians and Russians are much less strong and divisive in this time then later. Russian refugees and immigrants into Ukraine might ironically Russianify place more so then otl especially without Soviet famines, birth rate drops, and conflicts the Russian population could very well gets to Chinese or Indian level.
The Germans likely only concede to Poles, Jews, and Russians on allowing them to express and encourage their nationalism or identities. The Russian and Jews remaining in puppets are basically middle class at best while German enclaves are often elites or well off there.
It be ironic because Yiddish Jews will be tied to German imperialism/sympathies to some Slavs and Baltic people. They will try to Germanize as many Baltic and Slavic people as possible. They aren’t going to separate Ukrainian or Russian language just due to simple fact of convenience.
If Germany can keep bolsheviks out of power Russia might become British to its German ally(Anglo-American alliance parallel on power. They don’t always see eye to eye but Russians have become too tied to Germany to just cut things or directly come to odds again).
There was a Belarussian nationalist movement during the civil war and the German government wouldn't allow the Polish to have too much territory as they would not want them to be too powerful. Also, Ukrainian nationalism was very big during the cvil war, both Belarussian and Ukrainian natioanlists would revieve continued German support. You could also apply the same logic about a Russian population explosion to Ukraine and Belarus, execpt it would be greater due to there not being a Holodomor or Hunger plan by the nazis (which affected those region more.)
Belarusian nationalism was never very widespread or particularly powerful. Ukrainian nationalism was big during the Russian Civil War but cooperation with Germany seriously harmed their credibility in the eyes of the Ukrainian people, weakening their hold on power. Honestly it's a bit ridiculous to call yourself a nationalist while facilitating your nation being turned into a German colony.
IOTL, there was a government in Belarus called the Belarussian People's Republic which later was divided between the Polish and the Soviets.
Belarusian Democratic Republic - Wikipedia
Which was a puppet regime held up by the bayonets of the German high command. Doesn't mean anything in terms of popular support.
I wonder if Germany would have Courland made a 4th Baltic state for the Baltic Germans or if they would have been content with them being ruling class of the 3, majority non-German, Baltic states. Honestly I have no idea.