As far as colonies, Germany would take at least Belgian-Congo, Gabon (French-Congo), Ivory Coast, Dahomey (east of Togo), and potentially Guinana and Madagascar. Furthermore, the UK would accede to Germany's demands to take over control of Portugal's Colonies in African, namely Angola, Mozambique, and Portugese Guinea. Britain will lose no colonies because Germany will hardly be in a position to place demands upon them, and the Portuguese colonies would prove sufficient to satiate Germany.
Central Powers victory in 1918
- Thread starter Grey Wolf
- Start date
Hansmeister said:
Good points. I guess I was being a bit hasty. There may be the occasional place where a readjustment of colonial borders by Britain favours Germany (perhaps for Togo) but in general Germany would regain the majority but not all of its lost colonies, gain some from France and a nice swathe from Portugal
However, Germany cannot gain French Guiana as that is in the Western hemisphere and would break the Monroe Doctrine. Wilson, or even Congress, would simply refuse to accept this, and the USA still has the power to act to deny it.
Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf said:
No, they would gain French-Guinana, on the West African Coast, south of Senegal, and bordering Portugese Guinea.
As for losses, Germany might lose its pacific possessions, the islands mostly to Japan, with the Kaiser-Wilhelm land and the Bismarck Archipelago going to Australia. But I doubt they would have to give up possession of African colonies. The the wind of victory in their back it would be difficulty for the British to demand territories.
Of course, Britain could be compensated out of French colonies.
David S Poepoe
Banned
I agree with Grey Wolf. There's likely no chance that there will be a change of European ownership of a Western Hemisphere nation. The only options for those colonies are continued colonial status under the same imperial power, independence or purchase by the US. Regarding the considered French territories, I don't see any change of ownership, unless the French are forced to sell them off to the US or grant them independence. The Germans are in no position to challenge the Monroe Doctrine.
This is very similar to the debate about WI Russia still owned Alaska during the Russo-Japanese War.
This is very similar to the debate about WI Russia still owned Alaska during the Russo-Japanese War.
Susano
Banned
Well, France could cede them to Germany under the cndition that Germany seels them to the USA afterwards, in exchange for american conessions in America... I earleir said that the USA would likely try to get poland or the baltcis not annexxed by Germany, as those areas were already establisehd as independant countries by Brest-Litovsk. Well, maybe Germany can getAmerican neutrality upon this in exhange for the french territories.
http://www.dur.ac.uk/~dml0www/brestlit.htm
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/brest.htm
http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1918/brestlitovsk.html
As part of Article VI :-
Esthonia and Livonia will likewise, without delay, be cleared of Russian troops and the Russian Red Guard. The eastern boundary of Esthonia runs, in general along the river Narwa. The eastern boundary of Livonia crosses, in general, lakes Peipus and Pskow, to the southwestern corner of the latter, then across Lake Luban in the direction of Livenhof on the Dvina. Esthonia and Livonia will be occupied by a German police force until security is insured by proper national institutions and until public order has been established. Russia will liberate at once all arrested or deported inhabitants of Esthonia and Livonia, and insures the safe return of all deported Esthonians and Livonians.
As far as 'proper national instutions' are concerned these could just as well be those of the Baltic Duchy as sovereign governments :-
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/bal_duke.html
Grey Wolf
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/brest.htm
http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1918/brestlitovsk.html
As part of Article VI :-
Esthonia and Livonia will likewise, without delay, be cleared of Russian troops and the Russian Red Guard. The eastern boundary of Esthonia runs, in general along the river Narwa. The eastern boundary of Livonia crosses, in general, lakes Peipus and Pskow, to the southwestern corner of the latter, then across Lake Luban in the direction of Livenhof on the Dvina. Esthonia and Livonia will be occupied by a German police force until security is insured by proper national institutions and until public order has been established. Russia will liberate at once all arrested or deported inhabitants of Esthonia and Livonia, and insures the safe return of all deported Esthonians and Livonians.
As far as 'proper national instutions' are concerned these could just as well be those of the Baltic Duchy as sovereign governments :-
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/bal_duke.html
Grey Wolf
Susano said:
Not quite sure what you mean ? The Central Powers will give it a king, bind it as an ally, and probably keep a fair number of troops as garrisons on the Russian border and advisors.
Oh, I admit in OTL its POSSIBLE that the Supreme Command MAY have decided not to go ahead with this, but I hate timelines which get completely bogged down in issues that people don't take a leap at and make a decision so that the discussion can proceed
For example, consider that in 1916 the German occupying forces DID ALREADY announce an independent Poland. They then had a hell of a lot of trouble with Pilsudski and his forces not acting as they had expected. But given a CP victory, the Poles know that they cannot now hold out in the hope that Britain, France and the USA will deliver them a better deal. They have to make the best of what is on offer.
Grey Wolf
I should imagine that the years after 1918 will see German settlement activity in the additional part of Alsace-Lorraine now annexed, and in the Baltic Duchy to provide a more German-focused and therefore presumably loyal middle and lower class for the German barons and their Grand Duke
Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf
Is it my imagination or do factors fluctuate in importance in these discussions depending on what is supposed to be proved? One week it's the importance of the American role in 1918, now it's Foch. Would things have been really all that different had he not been there? I would have thought it was Ludendorff's faulty strategy, not Foch's response, that was the key issue. Anyway by the time he took command, the most dangerous part of the German offensive was over.
Also I find it rather pointless to build up huge structures of speculation on rather shaky foundations. "Had Foch been killed in a car crash in early 1918, what would the level of German old age pensions been in 1999?" etc. There's a story in the Arabian Nights of a poor man who has a pot he's going to sell. With the money received, he's going to do this, and from that do this, etc. He's got as far as marrying the Caliph's daughter when one of his grandiose gestures with his hand (suitable to one of his new rank) knocks over and breaks the pot.
Also I find it rather pointless to build up huge structures of speculation on rather shaky foundations. "Had Foch been killed in a car crash in early 1918, what would the level of German old age pensions been in 1999?" etc. There's a story in the Arabian Nights of a poor man who has a pot he's going to sell. With the money received, he's going to do this, and from that do this, etc. He's got as far as marrying the Caliph's daughter when one of his grandiose gestures with his hand (suitable to one of his new rank) knocks over and breaks the pot.
Hansmeister said:
Victories on land don't make the German navy any stronger. The German fleet would still be blockaded by the Royal Navy and Germany would have no way to project any power outside of Europe. If Belgium refused to give up the Congo the Germans couldn't take it and there isn't anything the Germans could do to make them give it up.
Prunesquallor said:
Er, well this is an ALTERNATE HISTORY forum... If you don't find alternate history realistic there are plenty of real history forums out there as well.
As for shaky foundations, its called a POD - unless we change a whole massive structure of the past there's nothing else to speculate on... And personally I don't like those timelines that require completely different settlement patterns or religio-cultural traditions because personally I have nothing to contribute to them, but that is just me and my preference.
Grey Wolf