Central Power Victory: Does Germany force the UK to let go of India?

Ryan

Donor
The only way they can is if they've destroyed the RN and are occupying Britain.

What happens depends on what is meant by 'letting go of India'. does it mean that the British Raj becomes the German Raj, or does it mean that a sovereign Indian state comes into existence?
 
No. To take something as big as India (which was called the Crown Jewel of the British Empire for a reason) Germany would need to be in a position where either they can invade England or starve it into submission. The German navy wasn't strong enough to do either.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
The only way that I could even remotely see this happening is if Germany wins such a decisive victory in Europe and then tries using Belgium and large parts of France as bargaining chips to make this happen. However, the crucial question is this--why exactly would Germany give up Belgium and large parts of France in exchange for making British India free and independent?
 
Contrary to popular belief, a Central Powers victory in WWI ends the British Empire. While the British Navy was the largest fleet by far, it could not protect the UK

If Germany wins the war on land:

The Russians and French fleets will be turned over to Germany as part of the peace settlement. Anything else is unimaginable The Germans turned their's over. Its unlikely that the Germans would allow the fleets to be scuttled. This gives the Germans more than enough firepower to challenge the British fleet

The Germans would also be in control over the continent. No army could stand up to her and the foreign policy of all European states would follow Germany's lead. That means the end of Anglo-European trade. This is far more devastating to Britain than the U-boat campaign

The German Uboat war would be changed to a true sea denial war. The Germans could use the French and Spanish bases to send raiders to sea. A hundred Armed Merchantmen prowling the seas will wreck havoc on British trade.

The battlecruisers and protected cruisers of the continental fleets would make short work of any but the most heavily guarded convoys

Nor could the British inflict any real harm on Germany. The continent cannot be blockaded and everything that one needs can be found there
 
Contrary to popular belief, a Central Powers victory in WWI ends the British Empire. While the British Navy was the largest fleet by far, it could not protect the UK

If Germany wins the war on land:

The Russians and French fleets will be turned over to Germany as part of the peace settlement. Anything else is unimaginable The Germans turned their's over. Its unlikely that the Germans would allow the fleets to be scuttled. This gives the Germans more than enough firepower to challenge the British fleet

The Germans would also be in control over the continent. No army could stand up to her and the foreign policy of all European states would follow Germany's lead. That means the end of Anglo-European trade. This is far more devastating to Britain than the U-boat campaign

The German Uboat war would be changed to a true sea denial war. The Germans could use the French and Spanish bases to send raiders to sea. A hundred Armed Merchantmen prowling the seas will wreck havoc on British trade.

The battlecruisers and protected cruisers of the continental fleets would make short work of any but the most heavily guarded convoys

Nor could the British inflict any real harm on Germany. The continent cannot be blockaded and everything that one needs can be found there

Napoleon called - he wants his war strategy back.

So does Hitler actually.

Particularly the stuff about the continent being impossible to blockade and everything one could need being found there.
 
Napoleon called - he wants his war strategy back.

So does Hitler actually.

Particularly the stuff about the continent being impossible to blockade and everything one could need being found there.


Yep, that's right Napoleon and Hitler knew that he who controls the continent, controls Britain. Britain knew it too and so Britain fought like she always did- to prevent the hegemony of the continent by any of the land powers

Britain could barely keep the sealanes open against the Germans with the help of the French, Italian and Russian navies. How is she going to do so when these fleets are in German hands?

What do you think will happen to the French, Italian and Russian navies? Really honestly

And what does Germany need for an industrial war that she can't get on the continent?

Britain didn't fight Hitler alone- they had the Soviets and Americans to help but not here. Here the British are all alone and the only things they can get from America are what they pay for
 
I think that Britain could bribe Germany to leave the Channel ports without having to hand over India. Besides, I don't think that the governing arrangements with India would be conducive to a simple transfer like the arrangements with other imperial possessions.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
For what it's worth, I would like to make an additional point here--if Germany wins WWI and the Muslim League still eventually emerges as a formidable political force in British India, do Germany and the Ottoman Empire try sponsoring the Muslim League in order to further advance their own foreign policy interests?

If so, would Jinnah and the Muslim League be willing to accept German and Ottoman aid and assistance?
 
Contrary to popular belief, a Central Powers victory in WWI ends the British Empire. While the British Navy was the largest fleet by far, it could not protect the UK

If Germany wins the war on land:

The Russians and French fleets will be turned over to Germany as part of the peace settlement. Anything else is unimaginable The Germans turned their's over. Its unlikely that the Germans would allow the fleets to be scuttled. This gives the Germans more than enough firepower to challenge the British fleet

The Germans would also be in control over the continent. No army could stand up to her and the foreign policy of all European states would follow Germany's lead. That means the end of Anglo-European trade. This is far more devastating to Britain than the U-boat campaign

The German Uboat war would be changed to a true sea denial war. The Germans could use the French and Spanish bases to send raiders to sea. A hundred Armed Merchantmen prowling the seas will wreck havoc on British trade.

The battlecruisers and protected cruisers of the continental fleets would make short work of any but the most heavily guarded convoys

Nor could the British inflict any real harm on Germany. The continent cannot be blockaded and everything that one needs can be found there

The Russian fleet was crap, it never recovered from Tsushima. And how is Germany going to keep the fleets from being scuttled, or sailed to Britain or the colonies? So long as there's a crew onboard (which won't be German due to a lack of sailors to properly crew every Continetal navy like you're suggesting), they can simply turn the guns on the shore and threaten bombardment while they escape. If the Germans respond with force, congrats, they've lost a ship. If they don't, congrats, they've lost a ship. Hitler never got the Vichy navy, and the Italians never beat the British in the Med in far more favorable conditions, just how is the Kaiser going to strongarm those two out of their ships? And the even better question, who's going to crew them? Germans? Like I said, there won't be enough sailors to crew them. The conquered peoples? Yeah, that's a real good idea. The Austrians? Why would they care? There is simply no way for Germany to realistically use the Continetal navies for a Grand Armada vs Britain. Even if they did, I doubt they'd be able to wield them effectively against a foe who's navy is unparalleled in quality and quantity and likely getting ships left and right from the Americans, if they aren't in the war. If things got really, and I mean really bad, the British would start recalling squadrons from around the world. In 1914, Britain either had numerical superiority or a slight numerical disadvantage to a combined Franco-German-Italian navy in nearly all categories. Wartime construction coupled with higher quality British sailors would doubtlessly offset this even assuming that Germany somehow managed to seize the entirety of each fleet at their prewar strengths. Throw in likely sabotage, scuttling, and defections (or British attacks on fleets about to be handed over) would whittle those numbers down even further. All in all, Germany can't compete with the Royal Navy save for with extreme luck in a battle, and this isn't even getting into the different designs for the ships and how asinine it is to assume that Italian ships would be designed or perform well in an Atlantic or Channel environment. French ships likely would, but the Italians had a fleet for the Med, not the open ocean.
 
I think that Britain could bribe Germany to leave the Channel ports without having to hand over India. Besides, I don't think that the governing arrangements with India would be conducive to a simple transfer like the arrangements with other imperial possessions.

Interesting. What do you think Britain could offer?
 
The Russian fleet was crap, it never recovered from Tsushima. And how is Germany going to keep the fleets from being scuttled, or sailed to Britain or the colonies? So long as there's a crew onboard (which won't be German due to a lack of sailors to properly crew every Continetal navy like you're suggesting), they can simply turn the guns on the shore and threaten bombardment while they escape. If the Germans respond with force, congrats, they've lost a ship. If they don't, congrats, they've lost a ship. Hitler never got the Vichy navy, and the Italians never beat the British in the Med in far more favorable conditions, just how is the Kaiser going to strongarm those two out of their ships? And the even better question, who's going to crew them? Germans? Like I said, there won't be enough sailors to crew them. The conquered peoples? Yeah, that's a real good idea. The Austrians? Why would they care? There is simply no way for Germany to realistically use the Continetal navies for a Grand Armada vs Britain. Even if they did, I doubt they'd be able to wield them effectively against a foe who's navy is unparalleled in quality and quantity and likely getting ships left and right from the Americans, if they aren't in the war. If things got really, and I mean really bad, the British would start recalling squadrons from around the world. In 1914, Britain either had numerical superiority or a slight numerical disadvantage to a combined Franco-German-Italian navy in nearly all categories. Wartime construction coupled with higher quality British sailors would doubtlessly offset this even assuming that Germany somehow managed to seize the entirety of each fleet at their prewar strengths. Throw in likely sabotage, scuttling, and defections (or British attacks on fleets about to be handed over) would whittle those numbers down even further. All in all, Germany can't compete with the Royal Navy save for with extreme luck in a battle, and this isn't even getting into the different designs for the ships and how asinine it is to assume that Italian ships would be designed or perform well in an Atlantic or Channel environment. French ships likely would, but the Italians had a fleet for the Med, not the open ocean.


The Russians were building 7 Dreadnoughts and 4 Battle Cruisers that were top notch and far better than most in the British fleet. They would make a fine addition to the German fleet by 1915. Then there are her destroyers and submarines which were also top notch. Just something to remember

Why would the Russians and French scuttle their fleets? To save Britain? Not when the Germans can march into Paris and Moscow.

Still waiting to see how the British are keeping the sea lanes open and how are they blockading the Franco-German border
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Contrary to popular belief, a Central Powers victory in WWI ends the British Empire. While the British Navy was the largest fleet by far, it could not protect the UK

If Germany wins the war on land:

The Russians and French fleets will be turned over to Germany as part of the peace settlement. Anything else is unimaginable The Germans turned their's over. Its unlikely that the Germans would allow the fleets to be scuttled. This gives the Germans more than enough firepower to challenge the British fleet

The Germans would also be in control over the continent. No army could stand up to her and the foreign policy of all European states would follow Germany's lead. That means the end of Anglo-European trade. This is far more devastating to Britain than the U-boat campaign

The German Uboat war would be changed to a true sea denial war. The Germans could use the French and Spanish bases to send raiders to sea. A hundred Armed Merchantmen prowling the seas will wreck havoc on British trade.

The battlecruisers and protected cruisers of the continental fleets would make short work of any but the most heavily guarded convoys

Nor could the British inflict any real harm on Germany. The continent cannot be blockaded and everything that one needs can be found there

Germany will be tired of war. A-H is a mess. There are lots of client states to setup in the east. In WW1, once France and Russia make peace, Germany will make peace with the UK unless the UK refuses to make peace. Germany will be too busy setting up its trade zone that runs from Berlin to Baghdad to worry about India or breaking the UK.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
For what it's worth, I would like to make an additional point here--if Germany wins WWI and the Muslim League still eventually emerges as a formidable political force in British India, do Germany and the Ottoman Empire try sponsoring the Muslim League in order to further advance their own foreign policy interests?

If so, would Jinnah and the Muslim League be willing to accept German and Ottoman aid and assistance?

Ottoman empire is a mess even in an Ottoman wank. The ottomans will be much more interested in reestablishing control of its 1914 lands. And then maybe more control/influence in Persia, Eastern Arabia, Aden, and/or Egypt. India is just too far away to worry about for the Ottomans in more than some symbolic way.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Ottoman empire is a mess even in an Ottoman wank. The ottomans will be much more interested in reestablishing control of its 1914 lands. And then maybe more control/influence in Persia, Eastern Arabia, Aden, and/or Egypt. India is just too far away to worry about for the Ottomans in more than some symbolic way.
India isn't that far away, though; after all, it borders Persia--which itself borders the Ottoman Empire!
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Interesting. What do you think Britain could offer?

MittelAfrika. Restoration of some German colonies in Africa plus some Belgium and/or French colonies is a quite possible trade. Go to the negotiating table with a German win. The UK can't force Germany to leave Belgium and French lands. The Germans can't get their colonies back. If the UK plays hardball on the colonies, then the Germans may well permanently fortify Antwerp as a major German Naval base. But if the UK is willing to trade, there are things they can trade to Germany and still have a larger British Empire at the end of the war. They could even try to spin it as a win.

Also, the UK is most interested in the Belgium coastal areas. The Germans will be most interested in the interior industrial areas of Belgium, plus some French mines, plus a free hand in the East. The negotiation can be game a lot of different ways. The best way to get a feel for it is to to go the shared world forum. Get a player for each major country. Pick a ref that is not a player. Write a loss scenario. Then do the negotiation. Both the Germans and the UK force a peace treaty on Status Quo end of war. The Ottomans need German help to get a good deal. A-H is just complicated. Russia will need the UK deciding to try to help it (unlikely) to get a better deal. France needs the UK help. Italy may be in ok shape in getting back prewar borders as long as A-H is in bad enough shape.

Also remember, that South Africa will freak out if you give SWA back. The Aussies will not like some concession made to Japan.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
India isn't that far away, though; after all, it borders Persia--which itself borders the Ottoman Empire!

Ottomans have no navy. Even in an ATL like my first one where the Ottomans get a big wank. And the routes overland are quite a travel on the roads of the day. It is not that the Ottomans could not sneak a regiment or two into India. It is just that the UK can easily counter these troops in the high passes of the Afghan lands. Now German and/or the Ottomans might well try to smuggle arms to these guys. Maybe send a little silver or gold. Or maybe allow some leaders to stay in Ottoman lands. But these actions are really just symbolic.
 
The Russians were building 7 Dreadnoughts and 4 Battle Cruisers that were top notch and far better than most in the British fleet. They would make a fine addition to the German fleet by 1915. Then there are her destroyers and submarines which were also top notch. Just something to remember

Why would the Russians and French scuttle their fleets? To save Britain? Not when the Germans can march into Paris and Moscow.

Still waiting to see how the British are keeping the sea lanes open and how are they blockading the Franco-German border

Why did the Germans scuttle their fleet? Out of nationalist pride, and because in a situation where the fleets are up for grabs, chances are Paris and St Petersburg are either occupied or already open.

Keeping the sealanes completely open is unrelated to controlling them because commerce raiding is essentially guerrilla warfare. You might as well be arguing that the Vietnamese could beat the US in conventional warfare because they defeated them by avoiding a pitched battle. And I'm still waiting to know why Hitler wasn't able to get the French fleet after occupying them. Or why the Germans scuttled their fleet.
 
Germany will be tired of war. A-H is a mess. There are lots of client states to setup in the east. In WW1, once France and Russia make peace, Germany will make peace with the UK unless the UK refuses to make peace. Germany will be too busy setting up its trade zone that runs from Berlin to Baghdad to worry about India or breaking the UK.

Perhaps after a long war but German chances shrink dramatically as the war drags on and Britain and France are supplied from the Americas. In a short war, the Germans aren't going to be very tired at all. By short I mean no longer than January 1, 1916. There are few German victory scenarios after that

And why would Britain offer such terms? She would know that the Germans are about to get extremely powerful from whatever indemnity she's collecting

Who on the continent is going to resist a Germany that has just beaten France and Russia and driven the British back to their Isles?


If Britain could truly live with a continental hegemon, than her foreign policy would make no sense going back centuries. In an era where rail had replaced the sea, she can afford it even less
 
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