Celt States?

I'll admit that my knowledge of the Celt civilization is cursory at best, but what are the possibilities that Celt tribes could urbanize and form centralized states (obviously not a single empire)? Would this culture be based in other civilizations (such as the Greeks) or could it arise by itself? And what POD could make this happen?
 
not sure on this but there would have to be a large change in the culture itself, to allow them to become urbanized. Also maybe more efficient growing practices to increase the population of villages to that of towns, then to cities. I think that might work
 
Perhaps a Celtic people could survive independently of any Germanic or Romantic state on a relatively isolated island in the Atlantic, preserving their language and culture. Later, they could willingly convert to Christianity, which will give them a system of monasteries that will write in their language, helping to preserve it further.

As an isolated island, of course, this potential Celtic nation would be vulnerable to colonialism. Perhaps they could be conquered by the nearest Germanic or Romantic nation, and subjugated. A difference of religion, perhaps in a Reformation scenario, would help prevent them from integrating with their conquerors by refusing to join the conqueror's religion.

Although there would have to be a long period of asymmetrical warfare and even incidences of what we would call terrorism to get independence, eventually all or part of this island could become independent-and voila! You have a Celtic state!
 

Razgriz 2K9

Banned
I wonder if you're sarcastically describing Ireland when you made that approach...

In any case, of the Celtic Civilizations, there are already 5 states that fit in that description, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Brittany and the Isle of Mann. Of the 5, only Ireland is an independent Celtic state (which sad to say, is mostly Germanic speaking [English] rather than Celtic Speaking [Irish]). Of the rest of these states, Brittany is a part of France while all the other generally Celtic States are in Great Britain.

If you're looking for like other parts of Celtic civilization to survive, you'll need a PoD somewhere between the 7th and 1st century BC (with any PoD into the AD's being less and less practical.) And would probably require a weaker Rome or a Rome not interested in expanding. Though the Celts would still have to deal with the Germanic peoples.
 
I wonder if you're sarcastically describing Ireland when you made that approach...

Just a little bit:D

EDIT: In the interest of being more useful, I'll throw out that a balkanized France could allow Brittany to survive as it's own kingdom, creating a Celtic nation on the mainland.
 
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Have the Senones destroy Rome in 387 B.C. and then you get a whole myriad of Celtic states...

Oh wait...
 
Those are all good options (minus the Atlantic island one... that sounds completely farfetched :D) But I was thinking more of an ancient POD... which brings me to...

Have the Senones destroy Rome in 387 B.C. and then you get a whole myriad of Celtic states...

Oh wait...

Did I ever tell you that your TL is awesome? If not, your TL is freakin' AWESOME!

Fanboying aside, could a Gaul without Roman conquest develop an urbanized civilization? Prehaps mixing with the Greeks in the coast or invading them. Or developing coastal ports in Aquitaine. I'm thinking of coastal options but Celts didn't seem to have a large connection with the sea (where most mediterranean cultures developed) and interior Celts seemed to be mostly tribal so not conductive to trade routes or major cities.
 
The Celts in Gaul were already urbanized when the Romans conquered them. Bribracte had a population between 5000 and 20000. Sure it was not as big as Rome but still high. People should stay informed of the last discoveries about Celts, which were far more advanced than what was previously thought.

Also, for the Celtic connection to the sea, the Venetii (those in Britanny and the Channel coasts) built ocean going boats when Cesar fought them.
 
The Celts in Gaul were already urbanized when the Romans conquered them. Bribracte had a population between 5000 and 20000. Sure it was not as big as Rome but still high. People should stay informed of the last discoveries about Celts, which were far more advanced than what was previously thought.

Also, for the Celtic connection to the sea, the Venetii (those in Britanny and the Channel coasts) built ocean going boats when Cesar fought them.

so basically you are saying that the gauls just needed more time?
 
The Celts in Gaul were already urbanized when the Romans conquered them. Bribracte had a population between 5000 and 20000. Sure it was not as big as Rome but still high. People should stay informed of the last discoveries about Celts, which were far more advanced than what was previously thought.

Also, for the Celtic connection to the sea, the Venetii (those in Britanny and the Channel coasts) built ocean going boats when Cesar fought them.

True. The Germanics urbanized, why not the Celts?
 
Ah, but wasn't Gaul urbanized already, if not on a Greco-Roman level? Romans were besieging and conquering cities first in Cisalpine Gaul, then Transalpine Gaul/Narbonesis, then the rest of Gaul as well as Iberia.

I would agree in basically saying the Celts, especially the Gauls of France proper, just needed time.
 
so basically you are saying that the gauls just needed more time?

They needed time, and did not needed an expansionist imperial state from the Mediterranean with the capability of destroying them all or compelling them to ally with it.

The Arverni, between the late Third to early Second Century BCE dominated the other Gaulish tribes in a large hegemony stretching from the Atlantic to the Rhine. Similarly to Rome's relationship with the other Italian states between the Fourth-First centuries BCE. If it was left unmolested long enough, the Arverni could have gradually unified Gaul under its leadership. Obviously, it wouldn't control all the Celtic tribes everywhere, but it may have had the strength to eventually project its power beyond its own immediate surroundings.
 
They needed time, and did not needed an expansionist imperial state from the Mediterranean with the capability of destroying them all or compelling them to ally with it.

The Arverni, between the late Third to early Second Century BCE dominated the other Gaulish tribes in a large hegemony stretching from the Atlantic to the Rhine. Similarly to Rome's relationship with the other Italian states between the Fourth-First centuries BCE. If it was left unmolested long enough, the Arverni could have gradually unified Gaul under its leadership. Obviously, it wouldn't control all the Celtic tribes everywhere, but it may have had the strength to eventually project its power beyond its own immediate surroundings.

I'd agree with this statement. The Arverni are a great bet for a strong, centralized Celtic state. The need only to keep the Germanic tribes at bay, and avoid any large scale wars with a unified Italian state. If they get away with seizing Massalia, they have a major Greek port along the Mediterranean coast, which will give them direct access to trade with other civilizations, increasing their wealth and legitimacy.

In Iberia the Celtiberian Federation, the Lusitanians, and the Asturians also have a chance to become powerful Celtic states. They, too, would need to keep Rome off their doorstep, but also would have to contend with the Carthaginians, specifically the Barcas. It's hard telling exactly what will happen there.

What happens in Britain is hard to say, and honestly depends heavily on what happens in Gaul.

In the Balkans, as usual, it would be chaos. There were Celtic powers like the Scordisci and the Boii in the area, but they were caught between a rock and a hard place with the concurrent rise of Rome and Dacia. Perhaps with some tweaking, they could make it out as very strong powers in the area, though likely unstable.

Then there are the Galatians, which, to be honest, don't look like they could last much longer than they did. They were too isolated, remote, and frankly they pissed too many people off. It almost seems inevitable that by the 1st century AD someone would gobble them up.

Another interesting prospect would be the idea of messing around with Celtic mercenaries. They were very popular in the ancient world, used by armies in Egypt, Carthage, Macedonia, Syria, Italy, Iberia, and Greece. If you have one particularly treacherous and ambitious band of Celtic mercenaries, they could overthrow a power and carve out a Celtic dynasty in an exotic land. If they are xenophobic enough, they could preserve their culture amongst their own aristocracy in the same fashion that the Ptolemies did.
 
If a Celtic dynasty were somehow to arise and usurp the Ptolemies (if indeed that's possible), the last thing they should be is xenophobic. If a Celtic force was to seize power in a Hellenistic country, they'd probably have to do what the Normans did in France, and adapt accordingly.
 
Another interesting prospect would be the idea of messing around with Celtic mercenaries. They were very popular in the ancient world, used by armies in Egypt, Carthage, Macedonia, Syria, Italy, Iberia, and Greece. If you have one particularly treacherous and ambitious band of Celtic mercenaries, they could overthrow a power and carve out a Celtic dynasty in an exotic land. If they are xenophobic enough, they could preserve their culture amongst their own aristocracy in the same fashion that the Ptolemies did.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia

So basicallly this?
 
They needed time, and did not needed an expansionist imperial state from the Mediterranean with the capability of destroying them all or compelling them to ally with it.
They needed an advanced mediterannean enemy just agressive enough to produce strong leaders and armies but just weak enough that they would not be conquered. The punic wars as a POD perhaps?
 
South East England was experiencing the beginnings of urbanisation before the Romans arrived with a growing trade with the continent so an agrarian civilisation adjusting to an export money based economy allowing for purchases in towns of imported goods and those of local artisans.

We recognise how different the ancient world was to today but fail to recognise it was also very much the same in many ways.

Perhaps we can add NW Spain to the list of Prythonic/Brithonic speakers and a proto celtic state? 'Celtic' being a language based identity not a genetic one.
 
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