Cecily and Anne of York's Kids Survive

The two sisters of Elizabeth of York who left no surviving issue (unless one interprets that Cecily left by her third marriage to Mr. Kymbe). Cecily had two daughters by her second husband, Elizabeth (b.1487, d.bef.1498) and Anne (d.1499). There may have been a son as well, the sources conflict. Elizabeth was betrothed to Margaret Beaufort's stepgrandson, Thomas Stanley (future 3e earl of Derby) apparently.

While Anne's childbearing history was almost as tragic. She had four children of whom two sons (Henry and William) and an unnamrd daughter died at birth (not even dates survive for them), while her eldest(?), named Thomas for his father, was born in 1496 and died at age 12 in 1508.

Henry VIII's only contemporaneous cousins growing up were the Courtenay kids and the Poles. And we all see how paranoid he was about THEM. Cecily's daughters could have interesting uses as proxy princesses for Henry VII in a similar way to how he'd previously offered his younger sisters-in-law abroad or Richard III had offered his de la Pole nieces. (Note I don't say Henry WILL do this, but he COULD simply use them as diplomatic counters). I wonder if Norfolk will be QUITE as trusted if he has a son with Yorkist blood? If his daughter were of an age, might he even push her instead of his niece, Ms Boleyn? (yes, I know butterflies)

@Tyler96 @desmirelle @FalconHonour @BlueFlowwer @Cate13 @mcdnab @AnnaRegina1507
 
A Yorkist Howard would be interesting, but any potential Yorkist claims to the throne carries the risk of a paranoid, trigger-happy maniac of a king might get the itch for a ax.
 
A Yorkist Howard would be interesting, but any potential Yorkist claims to the throne carries the risk of a paranoid, trigger-happy maniac of a king might get the itch for a ax.

Well, the Tudors kept the executioners busy, thats for sure. And Henry VIII never had an issue with it. His dad still hesitated about the de la Poles he had in custody, but on his deathbed told Henry to do what he could not.

The girls might slip under the radar for now. In fact, all of them might, until the 1520s if everything goes as normal. I could just see how Henry VIII will react if his Norfolk cousin weds the Stafford girl his dad did OTL...
 
A Yorkist Howard would be interesting, but any potential Yorkist claims to the throne carries the risk of a paranoid, trigger-happy maniac of a king might get the itch for a ax.

If Henry VIII has his otl problem of a lack of male heirs, might he consider one of them?
 
Girls are safer than boys because they can be neutralised by marrying them off to Tudor vassals, but the boys would probably have to be smuggled abroad to Burgundy if they don't want to end up in the Tower a la Edward of Clarence...
 
It would be interesting if Catherine of Aragon schemes to get Mary wed to a Yorkist clairmant and then they rally the country against Henry VIII. Mary and Yorkist Hubby takes the throne by conquest!
 
On the one hand, a male Howard with Yorkist blood could be a major source of paranoia for Henry VIII, and plenty of Howard's managed to get in trouble IOTL without the aggravating factor of royal blood.

However, the Poles and Courtenays didn't really go down in flames until the 1530s- at which point Henry's health wasn't the best, he'd been freaking out about the succession for 20-odd years, and had upended his country's religion. If butterflies avert some of those things then Henry might be somewhat less trigger happy, and if Henry's heir has Howard blood (through Anne Boleyn or someone else) then they could be seen to have a stake in upholding Henry's regime and succession.

Butterflies, obviously, but Tom Howard the Younger could probably earn some cred with Henry if he fights with distinction alongside his grandfather in some alt-Flodden. He'd be 17 in 1513.

Henry's tolerance for Tom Howard the Younger might also depend on if any other Howard's do the stupid stuff they did OTL (e.g. Henry's two Howard-blooded wives getting executed, two Howards getting chucked into the tower for romancing Henry's niece Margaret Douglas) and whether Tom conforms to Henry's religious shenanigans (assuming those still happen), keeps his mouth shut regarding Henry's marriages and succession tampering, and doesn't appear too sympathetic to Katherine of Aragon or Mary (again, assuming that happens as OTL).

I also think Tom might want to tread carefully regarding marriage- if he's seen to augment his own royal blood with that of a royally blooded wife, that could set off alarm bells.
 
It would be interesting if Catherine of Aragon schemes to get Mary wed to a Yorkist clairmant and then they rally the country against Henry VIII. Mary and Yorkist Hubby takes the throne by conquest!

Mary Tudor Jr married to Edward Howard, earl of Surrey (son of Thomas Howard, son of Howard and Anne of York; and Elizabeth Stafford) could be as interesting as seeing the OTL duke of Norfolk/earl of Surrey marry Mary, Queen of Scots.
 
Girls are safer than boys because they can be neutralised by marrying them off to Tudor vassals, but the boys would probably have to be smuggled abroad to Burgundy if they don't want to end up in the Tower a la Edward of Clarence...

Any suggestions for Elizabeth and Anne Welles? I think a Stanley match would be unlikely after the whole Perkin Warbeck affair (and the Stanley involvemwnt therein). Strangely enough, Elizabeth of York, passed a comment on Cecily's first marriage (to Scrope of Masham) that it was to a nobody, I wonder if Liz might feel likewise disappointed by her niece's husband.
 
I wonder if Norfolk will be QUITE as trusted if he has a son with Yorkist blood? If his daughter were of an age, might he even push her instead of his niece, Ms Boleyn? (yes, I know butterflies)

@Tyler96 @desmirelle @FalconHonour @BlueFlowwer @Cate13 @mcdnab @AnnaRegina1507
Well Kellan, that would imply firstly who Norfolk (and/or Boleyn) had pushed Anne (or Mary) Boleyn to Henry VIII and that is simply false as in OTL Anne’s match with Henry was not supported by her family (or Anne herself, but she had not choice other than playing along when the King started to offer to marry her)
 
Well Kellan, that would imply firstly who Norfolk (and/or Boleyn) had pushed Anne (or Mary) Boleyn to Henry VIII and that is simply false as in OTL Anne’s match with Henry was not supported by her family (or Anne herself, but she had not choice other than playing along when the King started to offer to marry her)

I agree they probably didn't push her. However, I do wonder if they were still objecting as loudly as they might have while it was raining titles and whatnot, once they saw which way this was going.
 
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