Catholic Herald: "Catholic England Today"

"What Catholic England Would Look Like Today"

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/issues/april-24th-2015/what-catholic-england-would-look-like-today/

Not surprisingly, considering the source, a lot better.

POD, Prince Henry IX survives

Henry VIII and Katherine went on to preside over England’s first truly Renaissance court, where the progressive influence of Thomas More and Erasmus brought a gentle but keen appreciation of the classics and humanities.
Aside from burning alive a few Prods for wanting to read the Bible in English

What brought darkness were mobs of iconoclasts and book-burners under successive Protestant regimes – vandals who destroyed 90 per cent of England’s historic artistic heritage as surely and mindlessly as ISIS is pulverising Iraq’s. If the Reformation had not reached England, our precious and irreplaceable heritage would have been spared the hammers, pickaxes and bonfires.
 
Aside from burning alive a few Prods for wanting to read the Bible in English

^This. A lot of glaring lapses of judgement regarding the Catholic Church's massive runs of corruption (which worked to fuel the Reformation), but nothing surprising of a newspaper called the Catholic Herald.
 
IMHO (I'm a Catholic Dutchman) it's a good alternate history thought experiment, also the loss of cultural heritage was a side effect of the reformation. Butterflies for the following centuries may be bigger than expected though.

Besides IMHO it wasn't the case that something good was replaced by something bad or something bad being replaced by something good. It IMHO was the case that society as a whole lost and gained something at the same time.
Were parts of the Catholic Church corrupt and needed to be revised, undoubtedly, that's why there also was the Counter Reformation, which was as much aimed internally as externally (against Protestants).
However no one can deny that the Catholic Church provided for community caring (which isn't taken away by the revealed incidents in the recent years).
Catholic thinkers like Erasmus and More are often overlooked as such, or by some even placed in a different light.

On a more personal level these changes were a lot more zero sum, since it is a matter of personal belief, in this case things became better for Protestants and worse for Catholics. In countries, which stayed Catholic it was the opposite.
 

Derek Pullem

Kicked
Donor
Pure bilge.

"There were few Protestants this side of the Channel, and nothing suggests they would have grown in any significant numbers."

So Wycliffe and the Lollards just disappeared from history?

Hugh Latimer and William Tynedale were not active?

Scotland did not go protestant almost independently of England ?
 
Now that was just obnoxious, and I'm not even talking about the butterfly genocide. Could they really read that out loud with a straight face?
 
Of course trying to equate the actions of nearly 500 years ago with ISIS is completely sensible.......:confused:

I mean - anyone might think that the New Statesman was suggesting Muslim fundamentalists were 500 years out of date :eek:

Well, dissolution of monasteries is of course same thing as ISIS demolishing Sumerian and Assyrian artefacts..... Right? :rolleyes:
 
Well, dissolution of monasteries is of course same thing as ISIS demolishing Sumerian and Assyrian artefacts..... Right? :rolleyes:

Completely the same thing, no. Were valuable Catholic artefacts etc. being destroyed and looted, absolutely. Not everything was destroyed, but monasteries were stripped and from anything valuable.
No one can deny Protestants, not all religious fanatics, some were just opportunists, did this and that Catholics (which have their share of things they did wrong) were grieved by this.
 
Nelson wouldn't have fought just the Spanish at Trafalgar, eh? Erm, where were the French again? And how can no British Reformation butterfly away the French Revolution?
This article contains so much wishful thinking that it's puddling on the ground beneath it! :rolleyes:
 
The way the author discusses culture strikes me as especially simplistic, because he posits too clear of a break between the pre- and post-Reformation periods. While it's undeniable that the destruction of monasteries in particular caused a lot of England's medieval, Catholic heritage to be lost irretrievably, plenty of other traces of Catholic culture survived. Take the mystery plays, for example. Performances of the mystery plays apparently didn't suddenly stop under Henry or Edward, as was once believed, but continued in some towns (especially in the north) into Elizabethan times. It's entirely possible Shakespeare could have witnessed them as a child, some believe.

European Catholic culture also continued to exert influence in England long after the Reformation. Take Edmund Spenser: he's usually thought of as the consummate Protestant poet of the 16th century, and in many ways he is, but two of his biggest influences were the Italian Catholic poets Ariosto and Tasso. Italian, French, and Spanish literature all went right on crossing the Channel throughout the Reformation. Harrington's translation of Ariosto was popular. So was Florio's translation of Montaigne, and Hoby's translation of Castiglione. Don Quixote was well-known in England, and one of Shakespeare's lost plays was apparently based on it. It's not like the English Protestants erected a quarantine around the country to keep Catholic influences out. Governments in the 16th century couldn't control the flow of information in that way, and generally didn't try. Also, there was such a thing as Protestant humanism, which you'd never guess from this article.
 
Pure bilge.

"There were few Protestants this side of the Channel, and nothing suggests they would have grown in any significant numbers."

So Wycliffe and the Lollards just disappeared from history?

Hugh Latimer and William Tynedale were not active?

Scotland did not go protestant almost independently of England ?

The article said "few", not "none". The issue isn't entirely settled, but my impression is that the current historical consensus is that the English Reformation was mostly a top-down affair, rather than a bottom-up response to popular pressure. So, absent the King's Great Matter, there's no real reason to suppose that England would have turned into a Protestant nation.
 
The way the author discusses culture strikes me as especially simplistic, because he posits too clear of a break between the pre- and post-Reformation periods. While it's undeniable that the destruction of monasteries in particular caused a lot of England's medieval, Catholic heritage to be lost irretrievably, plenty of other traces of Catholic culture survived. Take the mystery plays, for example. Performances of the mystery plays apparently didn't suddenly stop under Henry or Edward, as was once believed, but continued in some towns (especially in the north) into Elizabethan times. It's entirely possible Shakespeare could have witnessed them as a child, some believe.

European Catholic culture also continued to exert influence in England long after the Reformation. Take Edmund Spenser: he's usually thought of as the consummate Protestant poet of the 16th century, and in many ways he is, but two of his biggest influences were the Italian Catholic poets Ariosto and Tasso. Italian, French, and Spanish literature all went right on crossing the Channel throughout the Reformation. Harrington's translation of Ariosto was popular. So was Florio's translation of Montaigne, and Hoby's translation of Castiglione. Don Quixote was well-known in England, and one of Shakespeare's lost plays was apparently based on it. It's not like the English Protestants erected a quarantine around the country to keep Catholic influences out. Governments in the 16th century couldn't control the flow of information in that way, and generally didn't try. Also, there was such a thing as Protestant humanism, which you'd never guess from this article.

I don't think the article was trying to claim that the Reformation imposed a cultural Iron Curtain across the Channel or anything like that, but there was a lot of destruction of visual art -- paintings, statues, that sort of thing.
 
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