Catholic Frederick the Great

If Frederick converted to Catholicism in his youth 1720s (but obviously let his protestant nobles keep their practices or that's asking for trouble), how would this affect the European world?

Assume these things remain like OTL

(I mean, it's plausible to butterfly away the War of Austrian Succession with our POD, but let's suppose the butterflies allow it to happen in some form)

House of Hannover and House of Hapsburg retain or at least try to retain their odd alliance.

Savoyads remain allied to hapsburgs

Anyone who doesn't meet with Frederick post POD or have their marriages changed post POD has the same children for the next 30 years. Or at least, children "in the ballpark" gene wise and with the same names. So if he does;t marry Elizabeth in TTL, she marries someone else, then she has different children. Charles VI, Holy Roman Emperor, is still married to the same person and doesn't bone his wife more or less due to the Electorate of Brandenburg converting, so he has the same children. Someone who met Frederick in TTL and is convinced to try harder for a son can have different children.

Charles VI, Holy Roman Emperor dies in 1740.

France and Bavaria still challenges Austria by trying to make Charles of Bavaria Holy Roman Emperor. France also tries to take away Tuscan with... whatever logic they had in OTL

Anything else is up for grads. Does Maria Therese have her OTL Husband or does Frederick seem like a more appealing choice? Maybe Charles VI doesn't invade the Ottomans. Maybe a succession happens and it's short.
 
If Frederick converted to Catholicism in his youth 1720s (but obviously let his protestant nobles keep their practices or that's asking for trouble), how would this affect the European world?

Assume these things remain like OTL

(I mean, it's plausible to butterfly away the War of Austrian Succession with our POD, but let's suppose the butterflies allow it to happen in some form)

House of Hannover and House of Hapsburg retain or at least try to retain their odd alliance.

Savoyads remain allied to hapsburgs

Anyone who doesn't meet with Frederick post POD or have their marriages changed post POD has the same children for the next 30 years. Or at least, children "in the ballpark" gene wise and with the same names. So if he does;t marry Elizabeth in TTL, she marries someone else, then she has different children. Charles VI, Holy Roman Emperor, is still married to the same person and doesn't bone his wife more or less due to the Electorate of Brandenburg converting, so he has the same children. Someone who met Frederick in TTL and is convinced to try harder for a son can have different children.

Charles VI, Holy Roman Emperor dies in 1740.

France and Bavaria still challenges Austria by trying to make Charles of Bavaria Holy Roman Emperor. France also tries to take away Tuscan with... whatever logic they had in OTL

Anything else is up for grads. Does Maria Therese have her OTL Husband or does Frederick seem like a more appealing choice? Maybe Charles VI doesn't invade the Ottomans. Maybe a succession happens and it's short.

Likely as not, after Friedrich Wilhelm has thrown his fit of apoplexy, and disinherited Friedrich in favour of his younger brother, August (not kidding, Friedrich Wilhelm actually considered doing this OTL, and Karl VI was the one to stay his hand), likely he calms down and sees how he can use this to his advantage. Most likely, he offers his now (possibly disinherited) converted son to Karl VI as a bridegroom for Maria Theresia. There actually was a TL on this, and it seemed promising for a while, but then Maria Theresia kinda just became a good little hausfrau, and I sorta lost interest.

Karl VI is likely still an idiot who goes to war with the Turks and bothers more about trying to get Europe to sign a contract they have no intention of keeping instead of saving money and building his army.

France's actions with regard to Tuscany (or do you mean Lorraine?) was actually pretty standard. A Bourbon prince, namely Infante Carlos of Spain, had the best genealogical claim to the grand duchy of Tuscany, should the reigning grand duke die without issue. Everything was just short of settled, Carlos was in Florence, Giovan' Gastone liked him (which was saying something) blah-blah. And then the war of the Polish Succession broke out, Spain reconquered Naples and Carlos became king there instead, but at the treaty of Vienna, Tuscany was taken from the Bourbons and given to the Austrians to preserve the "balance" of power in Italy between the Bourbons and the Habsburgs. This pissed Giovan' Gastone off, especially since he'd grown fond of Carlos, and these decisions were taken without any reference to him.

Concerning Lorraine, France likely still makes a grab - although if François III Étienne hasn't given it up to marry Maria Theresia (cause she's marrying Fritz), since Karl VI told him, and he [François] refused three times before he caved, "no renunciation, no archduchess" - they have less legitimacy in doing so than OTL. Most likely, if MT is married to Fritz, the duke of Lorraine marries somewhere else (maybe her sister, Maria Anna?) but he doesn't have to renounce Lorraine (which his mother and brother will be very happy about, since originally Charles Alexandre of Lorraine hoped that he would inherit Lorraine if his brother were to renounce it, but then the poor guy found out that he wasn't even being considered, and understandably blew a gasket!). And then Tuscany's the one left without a chair in this game of musical thrones. Since OTL, it worked out pretty nicely, François gives up Lorraine, gets compensated with Tuscany, keeps it out of the hands of the Bourbons. Here, Fritz hasn't given up anything to marry MT, François hasn't given up Lorraine, so won't get Tuscany, and the Habsburgs are shit out of archdukes. So even if Austria gets it (questionable), it ends up returning to the empire as a fief (which was a problem since Tuscany had overlapping jurisdictions which owed fealty to the pope, the emperor (Florence) and the king of Spain (Siena and Presidi, IIRC)) not in PU as a secondogeniture as OTL.

Does France still support Bavaria? Probably, Karl Albrecht gets the same lukewarm French support that he got OTL. France didn't want a replacement for the Habsburgs so much as they wanted to stir trouble for the Habsburgs.
 
Anything else is up for grads. Does Maria Therese have her OTL Husband or does Frederick seem like a more appealing choice? Maybe Charles VI doesn't invade the
He was intended to marry her, mostly to ran away his father but was interested and willingly to convert and that can be the PoD and the butterflies would be massives.
 
Yeah...Fred and MT. Scenes from a Marriage. He is the Emperor. A brilliant commander of course. Famous Defender of Germany. But she is the Queen of Hungary, Bohemia, etc. with all the power. She's a passionate woman and he is, well, a thinker, really. No kids. A lot of time apart. Bitchy letters back and forth. Great stuff for historians. Then there is another succession crisis when they die. Maybe Maria Anna (who will marry Francis Stephen, complicating her relationship with her sister) has some kids, contenders foe the thrones.
 
Hey guys, I said I noticed the question was floated before. And it doesn't have typos like mine. Like "grabs" being misspelled
 
Did Frederick the Great actually consider it? Because otherwise, the ruler of such a staunchly Lutheran state being Catholic is absurd.
He was raised a calvinist. As were all the Brandenburg Hohenzollern since 1613. I admit, there's probably a greater divide between catholicism and Evangelical than between Evangelical and calvinism. But as an enlightened person, Frederick could step over that. For the same reason, it would be hard to find a personal motivation for conversion. Maybe to vex his father?
 
He was raised a calvinist. As were all the Brandenburg Hohenzollern since 1613. I admit, there's probably a greater divide between catholicism and Evangelical than between Evangelical and calvinism. But as an enlightened person, Frederick could step over that. For the same reason, it would be hard to find a personal motivation for conversion. Maybe to vex his father?

Ambition might be personal motivation enough. I mean, by converting Fritz gets a chance to throw his hat in the ring. Obviously that DOESN'T mean the same as that he WILL marry Maria Theresia, but it certainly increases the possibilities. His dad will likely go thwack thwack thwack with his cane awhile until he comes around to the idea. Once he does, he's likely to latch on for all it's worth. And ifhe can use it to stick it to his "brother the red cabbage) in London, so much the better.

Did Frederick the Great actually consider it? Because otherwise, the ruler of such a staunchly Lutheran state being Catholic is absurd.

IDK about that, although Friedrich August I of Saxony's conversion might be labelled ASB by alt-history writers in another dimension, it DID happen. And AFAIK Electoral Saxony wasn't any the worse for wear (the PLC is another story, but we're not discussing that here).

As to Friedrich, IIRC "he sported religious ideas he knew would vex his father. His father feared he was not of the elect [those who are saved from damnation in Calvinist theology] and insisted that Friedrich not be taught about predestination. Friedrich learned about it anyway, to spite Fredrich Wilhelm. His father feared ghosts, so Friedrich mocked the superstition". And Nancy Mitford also writes that aparently Fritz was rather adept at flooring his dad in theological arguments.
 
Why don't you all just go to...

Oh right anyone who wants to discuss needs to do it on a current thread. The threshold probably should be 48 months not 4
 
Top