Catherine the great lives longer

[Silver01]

So I watched a video on Catherine the great and was surprised to hear she nearly sent an army against Napoleon and this got me interested so like my basil II lives longer i did the same here with Catherine but unlike Basil II iam way out my field of "expertise" so I am gonna be interested in the answers

1) she lives till 1799
2) She lives till 74 years so till 1803
3) and last but not least she lives as long as 80 so till 1809

In these scenarios how would she living would impact the Napoleonic wars , would she do anything better than Alexander I?

 

[Elfwine]

The first thought that comes to mind: "What does she try to do with Paul?"

Catherine seems like she'd have to decide something there in the second or third scenario besides pretending that he doesn't exist, only her grandsons.

 

[Silver01]

The first thought that comes to mind: "What does she try to do with Paul?"

Catherine seems like she'd have to decide something there in the second or third scenario besides pretending that he doesn't exist, only her grandsons.

wasnt there a rumor that she planned to leave the empire to the grandson rather than him also i wonder if Paul would with out her cosent make a peace talk or outrigth join napoleonic wars to prove himself

 

[Elfwine]

That sounds believable, at least as a wish of hers. Not sure what Paul would do - want to be involved in some sense, at least, but how I don't know.

 

[alexmilman]

So I watched a video on Catherine the great and was surprised to hear she nearly sent an army against Napoleon and this got me interested so like my basil II lives longer i did the same here with Catherine but unlike Basil II iam way out my field of "expertise" so I am gonna be interested in the answers

1) she lives till 1799
2) She lives till 74 years so till 1803
3) and last but not least she lives as long as 80 so till 1809

In these scenarios how would she living would impact the Napoleonic wars , would she do anything better than Alexander I?

1799 makes only 3 years of a difference but the last two options could easily be catastrophic for Russia. She was already accumulating state debt as if there is no tomorrow and had been printing paper money not supported by anything but this was only a part of a problem:

1. Almost as a matter of a principle she was not controlling a civic administration, which resulted in an endemic corruption made even worse by the system of favoritism.
2. Serfdom reached its zenith in the terms of oppressiveness and became practically full-scale slavery.
3. Army lost discipline, the officers used soldiers as their household servants, the generals used their positions for self-enrichment (especially when there was an opportunity to grab land on the newly annexed territories).
4. Foreign policy was confused, to put it mildly and domestic not much better.

In OTL Paul:
1. Limited printing of the paper money and issued a special manifesto assuring the population that the measures for stopping their devaluation are going to be taken (it was underscored that the paper currency requires the public trust).
2. First of the Russian monarchs included the serfs in swearing a loyalty oath to a new monarch.
3. Tried to deal with the corruption of the state apparatus (admittedly, not too successfully but he did try).
4. Limited soldiers service to 25 years after which they were retiring as the free people.
5. Introduced the greatcoats for the military (none of the earlier “reformers” figured that out).
6. Reinstalled discipline in the army (not in the best possible way but soldiers life was improved).
7. Stopped conquests.

Now, on a personal level, in OTL Catherine’s mental health was already deteriorating so who can tell what it could be with an extra decade in her disposal?

 

[Silver01]

1799 makes only 3 years of a difference but the last two options could easily be catastrophic for Russia. She was already accumulating state debt as if there is no tomorrow and had been printing paper money not supported by anything but this was only a part of a problem:

1. Almost as a matter of a principle she was not controlling a civic administration, which resulted in an endemic corruption made even worse by the system of favoritism.
2. Serfdom reached its zenith in the terms of oppressiveness and became practically full-scale slavery.
3. Army lost discipline, the officers used soldiers as their household servants, the generals used their positions for self-enrichment (especially when there was an opportunity to grab land on the newly annexed territories).
4. Foreign policy was confused, to put it mildly and domestic not much better.

In OTL Paul:
1. Limited printing of the paper money and issued a special manifesto assuring the population that the measures for stopping their devaluation are going to be taken (it was underscored that the paper currency requires the public trust).
2. First of the Russian monarchs included the serfs in swearing a loyalty oath to a new monarch.
3. Tried to deal with the corruption of the state apparatus (admittedly, not too successfully but he did try).
4. Limited soldiers service to 25 years after which they were retiring as the free people.
5. Introduced the greatcoats (none of the earlier “reformers” figured that out).
6. Reinstalled discipline in the army (not in the best possible way but soldiers life was improved).
7. Stopped conquests.

Now, on a personal level, in OTL Catherine’s mental health was already deteriorating so who can tell what it could be with an extra decade in her disposal?

dam i have saw that the last years she made many steps back but oof this a lot just to add one more and if she lives as james maddison to the 85th year? so 1814 would she due to all the problems you mention be outsted? what about napoleon with all these problems could his invasion be successful or would Catherine or her court use it as rally point to distract the people from their problems

 

[Tibi088]

Also didn't she struggle with legitimacy problems all her reign - mostly because she had like none?

If there came open conflict with Paul and the latter manages to survive and flee that could be a set up for future civil war - he certainly would be more legitimate than his mother.

 

[alexmilman]

Also didn't she struggle with legitimacy problems all her reign - mostly because she had like none?

If there came open conflict with Paul and the latter manages to survive and flee that could be a set up for future civil war - he certainly would be more legitimate than his mother.

The issue of the legitimacy did not exist in the form your are seemingly implying. Thanks to the Peter’s succession law anybody could be a monarch and CII passed through all necessary steps. She was approved by the Senate and duly crowned, which made her as legitimate as it goes.

The problem was in the fact that another coup would be just as legitimate as her own coup. So she was working hard in two directions:
1. Make everybody who mattered, from the top aristocracy to the palace cooks (*) as happy with her reign as possible. The result was expanding the serfdom (to please nobility), lack of control over administration (to please bureaucracy) and lousy discipline in the army and especially in the Guards (to prevent a military coup). Crisis was delayed by the never-ending “glory” of the conquests and luxury of the court. Basically, she was going the same way as Louis XIV but was more lucky in picking the opponents.
2. Keep Paul out of the state affairs and make him as unpopular, especially at court, as possible. There could be no “open conflict” with him: he did not have any power and always was under a strong supervision. Of course, he grew up intensively disliking her but she did not care about that.



_______
(*) She never reprimanded her cooks for ill-prepared food out of fear to be poisoned.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

_______
(*) She never reprimanded her cooks for ill-prepared food out of fear to be poisoned.

Didn't Paul end up with ground glass in his food at one point? He believed mommy dearest was trying to do him in (probably because of this "inaction")

 

[alexmilman]

Didn't Paul end up with ground glass in his food at one point? He believed mommy dearest was trying to do him in (probably because of this "inaction")

Did not hear about that. But as he said during his European trip, “if my mother finds out that I developed fondness to my lapdog, she’ll order it being drowned.”