Catherine of Braganza marries Louis XIV of France

Well, if Charles II decides for a Catholic, and not being from Portugal, the future queen might be a French one. Louis XIV didn't have sisters, but he had many female cousins from his uncle Gaston, Duke of Orleans. Also, there were the sisters of the Duke of Savoy, who were also cousins of Louis XIV.

I like the French bride. It would be an excellent counter-part to the secret clauses in Charles II's Dover Treaty.

If Charles II has a son, who is also presumably raised as a secret Catholic, then do you think that a Second English Civil War is in the offing, or is there enough popular opposition to any royal power-grab that an alt-Glorious Revolution would occur in response (that is, Parliament takes it upon itself to install a new monarch)?
 
I like the French bride. It would be an excellent counter-part to the secret clauses in Charles II's Dover Treaty.

If Charles II has a son, who is also presumably raised as a secret Catholic, then do you think that a Second English Civil War is in the offing, or is there enough popular opposition to any royal power-grab that an alt-Glorious Revolution would occur in response (that is, Parliament takes it upon itself to install a new monarch)?

But would his son be raised as a Catholic? After all, he forced James to raise his daughters as Protestants.
 
Well, if Charles II decides for a Catholic, and not being from Portugal, the future queen might be a French one. Louis XIV didn't have sisters, but he had many female cousins from his uncle Gaston, Duke of Orleans. Also, there were the sisters of the Duke of Savoy, who were also cousins of Louis XIV.
Given France and England traditional enmity, a French bride could be seen as a peace deal, or to avoid more political opposition, Charles II could choose one of Victor Amadeus I' sisters.
What would be more determinant, any anti-French feelings or the opportunity for good Anglo-French relations?
 

Thande

Donor
If Charles II has a son, who is also presumably raised as a secret Catholic, then do you think that a Second English Civil War is in the offing, or is there enough popular opposition to any royal power-grab that an alt-Glorious Revolution would occur in response (that is, Parliament takes it upon itself to install a new monarch)?
If he was raised Catholic, Parliament might try and throw him out and install a Protestant, though there would have to be some sort of casus belli. No chance for the Republicans to have another go again, not with Cromwell's tyranny in living memory.

But would his son be raised as a Catholic? After all, he forced James to raise his daughters as Protestants.
That is a good point.

My apologies :eek:, English is not my mother tongue, and sometimes I may make some errors.
That's okay, I realise that; I was just letting you know for the future.
 
But would his son be raised as a Catholic? After all, he forced James to raise his daughters as Protestants.

I think Charles would treat his son and heir differently then he treated his brother's daughters. He needed James' daughters to make Protestant marriage alliances, and probably to demonstrate to the anti-Catholic Parliamentarians that he was serious in his commitment to the Church of England.

He needed different things for his son. I can only draw the conclusion from the secret clauses of the Dover Treaty that Charles II had the rather far-off goal of striving for more power. This plan obviously was not to be completed while he was alive, but for his son it might be possible. The English Civil War would be beyond living memory, and thus it might be possible to once again try for absolute royal power. Louis XIV was all about military campaigns, so perhaps Charles III (Charles II's son) tries to go for absolutism and ends up calling in his cousin's army.
 
Whilst Charles II was a secret Catholic, I think he one, genuinly loved England and wouldn't have wanted to cause a 2nd Civil War and two loved his family being on the throne.

Therefore, whilst he was a secret Catholic he'd have his son brought up a Protestand - maybe the son would have Catholic sympathys but i think he would be Protestand.

Just my 2pences worth anyway :D
 

Thande

Donor
Whilst Charles II was a secret Catholic, I think he one, genuinly loved England and wouldn't have wanted to cause a 2nd Civil War and two loved his family being on the throne.

This is true, but I don't know. He was unpopular for other related reasons as well: his policies of religious tolerance and the suspicion that he took orders from Louis XIV, who he had known while in exile in France.
 
He was unpopular for other related reasons as well: his policies of religious tolerance and the suspicion that he took orders from Louis XIV, who he had known while in exile in France.

Thats also true - however with a French mother (going on that assumption) his son is also going to be viewed with some suspicion - regardless of religious views.

:D Could be uber Catholic or Protestant :D all the Brits will see is a French mother :D
 
If Catherine of Braganza marries Louis XIV of France, the beneficiary of this marriage is France and France would become a more powerful nation and Portugal is the same as in OTL.
 
Ok, so Charles' son would be probably raised as a secret Catholic also. But, WI he has no son as heir, but a daughter? I think that an English prince marrying a Catholic woman, even if it was opposed by many, was quite acceptable (at least both Charles and James did it despite opposition). But if the heir is a woman I doubt that a Catholic consort would be acceptable. Charles would need to marry her to a Protestant if he wanted to keep his line on the throne.
 
Ok, so Charles' son would be probably raised as a secret Catholic also. But, WI he has no son as heir, but a daughter? I think that an English prince marrying a Catholic woman, even if it was opposed by many, was quite acceptable (at least both Charles and James did it despite opposition). But if the heir is a woman I doubt that a Catholic consort would be acceptable. Charles would need to marry her to a Protestant if he wanted to keep his line on the throne.

I agree that she would probably have to marry a Protestant prince. However I don't think that it would be a prince like William of Orange, since I don't think that Charles or the Parliament would want that level of continental entanglement. So maybe the second son of a Prussian King or a spare son of one of the Protestant German Electors?

This kind of union could end up playing havoc with English foreign policy, especially if a spare son ends up having to become the (King, Duke, Elector) of his homeland. So under these conditions I would say find the most interesting spare son available on the continent, wait a few years, and then kill off anyone in his line between him and the throne.
 
I agree that she would probably have to marry a Protestant prince. However I don't think that it would be a prince like William of Orange, since I don't think that Charles or the Parliament would want that level of continental entanglement. So maybe the second son of a Prussian King or a spare son of one of the Protestant German Electors?

This kind of union could end up playing havoc with English foreign policy, especially if a spare son ends up having to become the (King, Duke, Elector) of his homeland. So under these conditions I would say find the most interesting spare son available on the continent, wait a few years, and then kill off anyone in his line between him and the throne.

Well, if you want something weird, what about this: Charles II has several children with his wife (let's suppose she is Marguerite Louise of Orleans, as she is Catholic, French and a relative of Louis XIV), but only two survive childhood: the prince James (born in 1667) and princess Margaret (born in 1670). Charles still dies in 1685, and his son becomes James II, who still continues the pro-Catholic policies of his father and now is influenced by his uncle James, Duke of York (IOTL king James II).
However, in order to calm down the most worried Protestants the king decides to choose as husband of his wife a family that is recognized as champions of Protestantism: the Wettin of Sazony. And so, in 1692 Margaret marries Frederick August, the younger brother of John George IV, Elector of Saxony. However, something goes wrong. James II dies (maybe deposed) childless in 1694, and Margaret becomes queen. However, also in 1694 John George died childless, and then Frederick August becomes the elector. Saxony and England/Scotland are going to be in personal union under the House of Wettin.
Ironically enough, IOTL Frederick Augustus would convert to Catholicism in order to become king of Poland in 1697. But ITTL, as he is king consort of England and Scotland he would probably not do it (why the effort of try to be elected king of Poland if you have already secured for your children a more prestigious realm).
 
The problem with the Palatinate is that the only daughter of Charles, Elector Palatine, was born in 1552, and she would be too young to marry Charles II around 1662. Of course, he could marry later, but I'm not sure if it would be considered good to the monarchy.

Barely 110? Some sick people back then!

I'm kidding, of course, I know you meant 1652.

Anyway, no Spanish marriage means no War of Devolution, which means no Triple Alliance, which means no Dutch War, which means no victory for the Orangists in the Netherlands and also no French over-extension leading to defeat by the Grand Alliance. Louis XIV does not become the man who involved France in neverending wars and William of Orange becomes a footnote in the history books.
 
Anyway, no Spanish marriage means no War of Devolution, which means no Triple Alliance, which means no Dutch War, which means no victory for the Orangists in the Netherlands and also no French over-extension leading to defeat by the Grand Alliance. Louis XIV does not become the man who involved France in neverending wars and William of Orange becomes a footnote in the history books.

But what Louis would do after some years, when he realizes that his wife is unfertile? Would he try to divorce in order to secure a legitimate heir? And if he had tried, would have got it?
 
Have her killed . . .

Well, that wouldn't be a strange idea for the French court...;)

But anyway, even if he does it, Maria Theresia of Spain would have been already married to Leopold of Austria by then. France would have lost the reason for the French claim in Spain.
 
Top