Catherine of Aragon - Dead in Childbed?

Hi everyone,

Catherine of Aragon was pregnant six times over the course of eight years. Mary was her fifth child (and the only one who lived more than a couple months). What sort of changes would we have if Catherine had died during/immediately after the birth of Mary's younger sister, who only lived a few hours?

I don't think this is too much of a stretch, given OB/GYN care of the 1500s. I know at least one historian suspects Jane Seymour's death after childbirth was due to her male doctors not knowing to make sure all the placenta came out.

The obvious first change is that Anne Boleyn probably would not have been Wife #2. If Catherine dies in November 1518, Anne was still in the French court as a maid of honor. In OTL, she doesn't return to England until 1522, and there's no way Henry would have remained single for four years when he was desperate to get a legitimate son and heir. We'd have to throw in a state visit, either to or from Claude of France, for Henry and Anne to meet before some other lady gets a royal proposal.

(We also need to hope the earliest date given for Anne's birth is the correct one. If she was born in 1501, she would have been 17 when Catherine died. If the 1507 date is correct, Henry sniffing around an 11-year old Anne is a bit squicky.)

Another obvious change is that since Mary's parents' wedding was never annulled, Mary herself would never have been declared illegitimate. This would have given Mary a much more secure upbringing.

England wouldn't have needed to split with Rome over Henry's remarriage, since a widower would be free to marry (with the usual disclaimers). I suspect there would have been a split at some point, since Henry doesn't strike me as the sort to let any outside power have too much say in how he ran England. But that's just a guess, it's just as likely that Henry and England would have stayed in communion with Rome.

Does anyone have a candidate for Henry's second wife, or any other ideas on how this would play out?
 
Henry was very conservative in terms of theology. Without a legitimate reason, I see him sticking with the Pope, if for no other reason than Papal support for his own national Counter-Reformation.

Without need to get an annulment, Cardinal Thomas Wolsey would remain in the King's good graces. Equally importantly, he had aspirations to become Pope. If he achieves fame as the man who suppressed the Lutherans and Calvinists in England, he is a viable candidate.

Alternatively, armed Protestant rebellion against the King if their movement gets too numerous.
 
Catherine's death would happen ITTL in November 1518. If Henry VIII decides for a marriage that would keep the alliance with the Habsburgs, then the candidate would be Eleanor of Austria, sister of Charles V. She was known as the most beautiful princess of Europe at that time. Just an interesting story: she was supposed to marry the heir of the Portuguese throne, prince John (future John III), but when old king Manuel I saw her he decided that she should be his wife, not his son's.:p
Other princesses related to the Habsburgs (but not so closely, so Henry could have more political independency) would be Infanta Isabella and Infanta Beatrice of Portugal. They were cousins of Charles V, but as they belonged to the House of Aviz probably the Habsburgs would have less influence in court.
The problem here is to find someone who could be Henry's wife if he chooses a more pro-French policy. The only sister of Francis I was already married by that time, there were no princesses from the other Capetian lines with the right age to have a marriage that could be immediatelty consumated in order to give Henry a heir (and that would be his greatest concern). So, who could Francis I offer to the king?
 
I've found one French candidate available to Henry: Anne d'Alençon, Marquise of Montferrat and sister of Charles d'Alençon, the senior Prince of the Blood by then. She had one year younger than Henry VIII, and her husband - the Marquis of Montferrat - had died in 1518. She had one quality that could be of interest to Henry: she had three healthy children, and managed to give birth to a male heir to her first husband. Maybe he could think that she could do it again.
Also, it's interesting to notice that the negotiations to Henry's new marriage would happen under the context of the Imperial Election of 1519, and probably would be affected by the conflict between Francis I and Charles V.
 
I've found one French candidate available to Henry: Anne d'Alençon, Marquise of Montferrat . . . and managed to give birth to a male heir to her first husband. Maybe he could think that she could do it again.

I could well see Henry thinking that.

This is interesting idea, i like it :)

With Mary more secure you'd probs see her married off as well as she wouldn't be tainted with the illegitamacy (spelling?).

Any thoughts who that could be to?

Anne Boleyn would be married off to someone different to - maybe her cousin, the Earl of Ormond. Prehaps negotiations wouldn't fail this time.
 
With Mary more secure you'd probs see her married off as well as she wouldn't be tainted with the illegitamacy (spelling?).

Any thoughts who that could be to?

Well, she was offered once to the eldest son of Francis I, maybe with a French wife (especially if she gives him a boy) Henry VIII would honour that agreement.
 
Henry was very conservative in terms of theology. Without a legitimate reason, I see him sticking with the Pope, if for no other reason than Papal support for his own national Counter-Reformation.

Without need to get an annulment, Cardinal Thomas Wolsey would remain in the King's good graces. Equally importantly, he had aspirations to become Pope. If he achieves fame as the man who suppressed the Lutherans and Calvinists in England, he is a viable candidate.

Alternatively, armed Protestant rebellion against the King if their movement gets too numerous.

I am not so sure. As I've said elsewhere, this is a period when teh King of France is withholding Church funds and established a basically independent French Church within Catholicism; where Charles V is muttering that Luther had merit, and is in theoretical control of an army that sacks the Vatican. Fundamnetally the dispute between the monarchs and the Pope was one of power, and Henry does not seem the accomodating sort.
 
Catherine of Aragon.

In a way, death in childbirth would almost have been a blessing for Catherine. She would have been spared the stress and humiliation of the divorce. As for Henry's re-marriage, perhaps a Scottish princess, since I'm sure he would welcome the opportunity to extend his influence there, and his sister was already married to the king.
 
In a way, death in childbirth would almost have been a blessing for Catherine. She would have been spared the stress and humiliation of the divorce. As for Henry's re-marriage, perhaps a Scottish princess, since I'm sure he would welcome the opportunity to extend his influence there, and his sister was already married to the king.

The problem is that at the time there were no Scotish princesses available. James IV had no daughters and no sisters. The last Scotish king that had daughters who survived to adulthood was James II, and his descendents through them were too low rank to be considered as a tool of political marriages.
 
Catherine's death would happen ITTL in November 1518. If Henry VIII decides for a marriage that would keep the alliance with the Habsburgs, then the candidate would be Eleanor of Austria, sister of Charles V. She was known as the most beautiful princess of Europe at that time. Just an interesting story: she was supposed to marry the heir of the Portuguese throne, prince John (future John III), but when old king Manuel I saw her he decided that she should be his wife, not his son's.:p
Other princesses related to the Habsburgs (but not so closely, so Henry could have more political independency) would be Infanta Isabella and Infanta Beatrice of Portugal. They were cousins of Charles V, but as they belonged to the House of Aviz probably the Habsburgs would have less influence in court.
The problem here is to find someone who could be Henry's wife if he chooses a more pro-French policy. The only sister of Francis I was already married by that time, there were no princesses from the other Capetian lines with the right age to have a marriage that could be immediatelty consumated in order to give Henry a heir (and that would be his greatest concern). So, who could Francis I offer to the king?

Eleanor IMO is another interesting option, IOTL one of the reasons, why Charles arranged the wedding with a prince and later the king of Portugal, was that Charles feared Portuguese involvement in a possible Castillian rebellion against his reign.
OTOH the possibility of keeping a good relationship and alliance with England might be more interesting.
This raises a new question, who would be the third wife of Manuel ITTL?
 
Eleanor IMO is another interesting option, IOTL one of the reasons, why Charles arranged the wedding with a prince and later the king of Portugal, was that Charles feared Portuguese involvement in a possible Castillian rebellion against his reign.
OTOH the possibility of keeping a good relationship and alliance with England might be more interesting.
This raises a new question, who would be the third wife of Manuel ITTL?

Probably he wouldn't remarry at all. His third marriage was more fruit of his lust for his "future daughter in law" than anything else. After all, politically marrying Eleanor to the old king or to his heir wouldn't make much difference.
 
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