I think that what's needed is for Catharism/Bogomilism to not only survive but to flourish and spread to become significant as a branch of the Abrahamic religion proper, rather than just a minor offshoot of one of the branches like the Baha'i are.
Excellent job on the Occitan history! The homogenization of France is certainly recent enough to make this plausible.
I have to question how "Abrahamic" a religion is if it's not monotheistic, however. Clearly it's springing from the Christian tradition, just as Bahaiism evolved out of Islam's cultural base, despite not being, technically, an offshoot of Islam.
For that reason, we can reasonably (if not without some controversy) lump Bahais in with the Abrahamics. But this form of duotheism would be considered an atrocity by most Christians in the middle ages. England's alliance with it later on would be a heck of a lot more problematic than, say, Protestant England finding Catholic allies in the OTL Thirty Years' War.
Still, excellent fodder for thought.
> A follow-up about non-Abrahamics in the Ursulines- so how are the
> Cathars, anyways? They seem to be possibly involved in the slave
> trade, not unlike some Jewish merchants in OTL medieval times. And I
> suppose the Cathar worldview is as good enough as any for the life of
> a slave.
the Cathars are doing well in the slave trade, as you note when you view the
world as wicked, the difference between slave and free is just a matter of
degree. and they, unlike Christians, are interested in converting the
slaves. Catharism in the Ursulines is a very diffuse religion, hanging onto
true asceticism. unlike the Norse Pagans in Domstolland, they have not
progressed into a Catholic-style faith dominated by a religious heirarchy.
No Cathar Cathedrals or popes. This leads to doctrinal fragmentation, as in
OTL's Languedoc and Northern Italy, which they try to reconcile through
prolonged discussion and correspondence. So you could get a range of
opinion on just about any religious topic talking to different Cathars.
No. Just no. I don't know where you found this fact, but it's wrong. The Cathars rejected much of the Christian Bible, and in any case veneration of anything material was not allowed....the veneration of the Bible...
Not really. The consolamentum was an absolution, not always admitted just before death. Its receivers believed that they would be reborn higher up on the social ladder, or more precisely another step closer on the path to liberation.Most Believers expected to become Perfects only on their deathbeds.
Every single Cathar in history considered himself a true Christian. That's what they perceived themselves as - the restorers of true Christianity, removing centuries of Catholic corruption and decadence.The earliest Cathars considered themselves Christians;
Not sure what you mean here. Is the capital "o" Orthodox meant to be the Greek Orthodox Church? Or do you mean orthodox in the sense of following conventional religious dogma? If the former, then AFAIK the Byzantines did not really care what went on in France at the time, mainly because their own empire technically did not exist at the time....and therefore aroused the ire both of Rome and of their more Orthodox neighbors.
Raymond portrayed himself as being orthodox because that was the only way to avoid being tried for heresy. His association with the Cathars was well-known by Pope Innocent III. When the pope's legate, Pierre de Castlenau, was murdered in 1208, Raymond was implicated and subsequently excommunicated on what were probably trumped-up charges. The murder of de Castlenau was the pretext for crusade. It began in 1209, as 10,000 crusaders gathered in Lyons and marched south. Facing this great army, IIRC Raymond promised the pope to eliminate Catharism - but never had any intention of doing so. His excommunication was temporarily lifted. But the crusaders still attacked, committing various acts that can only be described as atrocities - the massacres of thousands of civilians, the vast majority of them innocent. At some point Raymond was excommunicated again, and he was shouted down during his trial at a papal court.Already by 1204 Cathar cities were strengthening their defenses, and in 1209 a Crusade was declared against them, called the Albigensian Crusade after the Cathar stronghold of Albi. Count Ramon VI led it as a show of Orthodoxy and piety, although he quickly fell out with the other leaders and was soon defending his own holdings against them.
No. Just no. I don't know where you found this fact, but it's wrong. The Cathars rejected much of the Christian Bible, and in any case veneration of anything material was not allowed.OK. I had read, probably online, that a New Testament or the Gospels or somesuch was involed. Could well be inaccurate.
Not really. The consolamentum was an absolution, not always admitted just before death. Its receivers believed that they would be reborn higher up on the social ladder, or more precisely another step closer on the path to liberation.
That's why I said "most". Everything I've seen suggests strongly that the Perfects were an elite.
Every single Cathar in history considered himself a true Christian. That's what they perceived themselves as - the restorers of true Christianity, removing centuries of Catholic corruption and decadence.
In this TL, once Catharism was legitimized (at least in Languedoc), it was on a very different path from Catholicism. By the early modern era, saying that "every Cathar considers himself a true Christian" would be a lot like saying "Every Christian considers himself a true Jew" - true on a certain level, but confusing at the same time. It was considered a separate religion and not a mere restoration movement. Some of the confusion is coming from the fact that this is written from an "in-universe" perspective. I should have realized more explanation was needed.
Not sure what you mean here. Is the capital "o" Orthodox meant to be the Greek Orthodox Church? Or do you mean orthodox in the sense of following conventional religious dogma? If the former, then AFAIK the Byzantines did not really care what went on in France at the time, mainly because their own empire technically did not exist at the time.If the latter, Rome defined what was and was not Catholic dogma at the time. No one was more orthodox simply because it was not possible.
Sorry, I tend to be a bit erratic with my capitals, and the word "more" there is confusing. It should read "Rome and its [Occitania's] other more orthodox neighbors", meaning "more orthodox than Occitania". So, basically, the orthodox/catholic kingdoms all around.
In this TL, there is actually a reconciliation between Rome & Constantinople and a return to the five patriarchs idea of Late Antiquity. That's the Council of Venice alluded to in the post. So Catholic and Orthodox are basically synonymous; when the differences are emphasized you have to use Eastern and Western, or Roman and Greek.
Raymond portrayed himself as being orthodox because that was the only way to avoid being tried for heresy. His association with the Cathars was well-known by Pope Innocent III. When the pope's legate, Pierre de Castlenau, was murdered in 1208, Raymond was implicated and subsequently excommunicated on what were probably trumped-up charges. The murder of de Castlenau was the pretext for crusade. It began in 1209, as 10,000 crusaders gathered in Lyons and marched south. Facing this great army, IIRC Raymond promised the pope to eliminate Catharism - but never had any intention of doing so. His excommunication was temporarily lifted. But the crusaders still attacked, committing various acts that can only be described as atrocities - the massacres of thousands of civilians, the vast majority of them innocent. At some point Raymond was excommunicated again, and he was shouted down during his trial at a papal court.
Most of that happened also in this TL. I condensed it. But "as a show of orthodoxy and piety", I meant that it was just what it was in OTL - mostly a show. It took Ramon a few decades in TTL to be totally open about his conversion, but he was definitely backing the Cathars early on, just like IOTL.
From there Simon de Montfort proceeded to plunder and lay waste to all of Languedoc. He killed King Peter II of Aragon (who claimed feudal rule over most of Languedoc) at the Battle of Muret in 1213. Eventually the lords protecting the Cathars were captured, killed, or deposed. Raymond fled in exile to England, leaving the Cathars to be burned en masse.
Simon died in the Fourth Crusade in TTL- one reason why the Albigensian Crusade was attrocious, but inconclusive.