Catharism: the Fourth Abrahamic religion

What would it take for the Cathars of Languedoc (as they do in Empty America) or Bogomils of Bulgaria to survive and become a major Abrahamic religion of its own?
 
What would it take for the Cathars of Languedoc (as they do in Empty America) or Bogomils of Bulgaria to survive and become a major Abrahamic religion of its own?

Cathars and Bogomils are both heretical Christian sects; hardly a 4th Abrahamic religion. In fact, the Cathars are notorious for referring to themselves as the "true heart of the Christian church". That may have been one of the reasons the Pope didn't like 'em.

As for what they need to survive...I don't think it can be done. They were a small group in a Catholic Europe when the Church was big on flexing its muscles. Maybe if they managed to stay underground until the Fifteenth or Sixteenth Centuries, they can just become a weird branch of Protestantism. But to become a major religion? A religion that decries to the point of banning both killing and sex is gonna have a hard time in the cruel world.
 
Those were more or less my thoughts as well. Somehow, you would have butterfly away the Albigensian Crusade and then butterfly away the Cathars' no sex rule. I'm not entirely sure how you accomplish that.
 
Cathars and Bogomils are both heretical Christian sects; hardly a 4th Abrahamic religion. In fact, the Cathars are notorious for referring to themselves as the "true heart of the Christian church". That may have been one of the reasons the Pope didn't like 'em.

It's not clear to me how different this is from early Christian and Islamic views of their faiths. They saw themselvse as the proper interpretation of the Abahamic faith, but nobody would say they were the same religion, right? Certainly the difference between Catharism and Catholicism looks greater than that between Protestantism (even Calvinism) and the Catholic Church.
 
Those were more or less my thoughts as well. Somehow, you would have butterfly away the Albigensian Crusade and then butterfly away the Cathars' no sex rule. I'm not entirely sure how you accomplish that.

Yeah, if the only way a religion can grow is by constantly gaining new converts, because it does not allow members to breed new members through sexual means, it is not going to become anything more than a minority sect anytime soon.
 
Yeah, if the only way a religion can grow is by constantly gaining new converts, because it does not allow members to breed new members through sexual means, it is not going to become anything more than a minority sect anytime soon.

Most Cathars themselves had sex; it was only the cathar priests who did not.
 
Most Cathars themselves had sex; it was only the cathar priests who did not.

Yes, they were divided into celibate "perfects" and ordinary "believers". Perfects comprised a sort of priesthood. Many believers took vows to become perfects on their deathbeds, I believe. Believe me, Catharism would not have had the spread that it had even in OTL if nobody could have sex.
 
But to become a major religion? A religion that decries to the point of banning both killing and sex is gonna have a hard time in the cruel world.
Two notes here: only the priests had to abstain, the Credentes were allowed to indulge in worldly pleasures. And note that the ban on taking life did not prevent the Cathar-supporters from raising significant armies to threaten the Crusaders in OTL.

Believe me, Catharism would not have had the spread that it had even in OTL if nobody could have sex.
Although I am fairly certain that Catharism spread mostly by conversion and only seldom through the procreation of new followers.
 
Although I am fairly certain that Catharism spread mostly by conversion and only seldom through the procreation of new followers.

Again... ;)

A monastic elite can be persuaded to accept celibacy. Even a relatively large one. But vast swathes of a region's people, in general, will not give up a basic human need easily.
 
Two notes here: only the priests had to abstain, the Credentes were allowed to indulge in worldly pleasures.
IIRC, the pleasures weren't the biggest problem, the procreation part was. They were allowed to engage in non-procreative sex. IIRC, it's where the word 'bugger' originated from.
 
I think the main difficulty to overcome isn't the particularities of the religion but rather the huge power the Catholic Church had. The Church would not accept competition so close to home, and would likely as OTL use all its temporal power and influence to destroy them.

Unless the Catholic Church is alot less powerful then this movement won't be too widespread.
 
I think Bogumilism is a better bet than the Cathars. Bogomil missionaries ranged far and wide OTL, perhaps amping them up a little might have some results. Less successful persecutions by the Byzantines, perhaps. Perhaps Bogumilism penetrates the Kievan Rus earlier than OTL, and reaches a sufficient critical mass become the main religion of Eastern Europe. The faith is really very different from other forms of Christianity and is much more likely to be see as a foreign religion. This could see a world where Christianity sees itself as contronting two enemies: Islam and Bogumilism. Serious, chronic Crusades in Central Europe.
 
Unless the Catholic Church is alot less powerful then this movement won't be too widespread.

I agree, the best hope for the Cathars is for something earth shattering to happen to the Church just before the Albigensian Crusade would have happened.
 
Is there any historical evidence for a Cathar liturgy? Was it similar to the pre-Trent Roman or Gallican forms? Or was the Cathar liturgy esoteric/gnostic and something altogether outside of the Western Christian experience?

I don't think the nature of the Cathar liturgy matters from a political standpoint if it was similar to most other Western liturgies. However, if it was something completely different, I could see how that might grab the attention of ecclesiastical/political leaders and further fuel persecutions against the Cathars.
 
Is there any historical evidence for a Cathar liturgy? Was it similar to the pre-Trent Roman or Gallican forms? Or was the Cathar liturgy esoteric/gnostic and something altogether outside of the Western Christian experience?
It was essential Gnostic, similar to Manichaean liturgy IIRC. There was a group of ascetic priests called the Perfect. They issued the sacred consolamentum, organized worshipers, etc. The Perfect abstained from basically everything possible except for praying and things needed to survive. According to Cathar beliefs, the Perfect would be released from the reincarnation cycle upon death.

Everyone else was in a group known as the Hearers, or Credentes. They were permitted to indulge in the material world, and everything that entailed. Some would chose to begin the arduous process towards becoming a Perfect, but most would live their lives normally. Upon death many asked for the consolamentum, the only Cathar sacrament. This was a general absolution that ensured ascension to a higher stature in the next reincarnation. Aside from that there was no formal dogma, nor officially a priestly class.

So I'd say it's pretty alien to the rigid and dogmatic Catholic Church of the thirteenth century.


But vast swathes of a region's people, in general, will not give up a basic human need easily.
Not everyone does, but enough do to replace the celibate Perfect as the old ones die off...

IIRC, the pleasures weren't the biggest problem, the procreation part was. They were allowed to engage in non-procreative sex. IIRC, it's where the word 'bugger' originated from.
You're partially right. Reproduction was discouraged because it trapped a soul in the material prison. At the same time, sex was frowned upon (even if it was not for procreation).
 
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