Catalan stays to be considered as an Occitan dialect

Could Catalan use the same orthography as other Occitan dialects and Portuguese and still be considered as an Occitan dialect by laypeople in the present.

What is the POD?
 
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Could Catalan use the same orthography as other Occitan dialects and Portuguese and still be considered as an Occitan dialect by laypeople in the present.

What is the POD?

Occitan was pretty scattered and diversified. It only started to come together in the XIXth Century. I've seen several documents in Occitan from the XIVth Century. Some of them seem to be French, some seem to me like Catalan and some sound like Italian. Their ortography varies greatly.

Catalan would be the most standarised and solid Occitan dialect, the only one that got a place into a chancery and a couintry's administration in Modern age.

For it to still be Occitan, you would need one of these three scenarios:

1- King Peter II is not defeated at Muret, he keeps his overlordship over Tolosa and eventually the houses of Tolosa and Barcelona merge into a single Crown of Aragon, whose kings are Counts of Barcelona and Tolosa and they promote the use of Languedocien instead of Catalan. In the XIIIth Century, Catalan is starting to be a language different than Occitan, so this could be reversed. But Catalan would remain as a dialect.

2- The Moors are never driven out of Tortosa and Lleida. This Catalan would stay in the Pyrinean valleys, looking probably not so different from the Aranese variant of Occitan nowadays.

3- Make the Trencavels Counts of Barcelona after the death of a childless Berenguer Ramon II, the killer of his twin brother, who also didn't had children (he did in RL, Ramon Berenguer III). An Occitan lord, and such a powerful one, whose castles became centers for Occitan culture, would certainly strenghten the relationship between Catalan and Languedocien.
 
Occitan was pretty scattered and diversified. It only started to come together in the XIXth Century. I've seen several documents in Occitan from the XIVth Century. Some of them seem to be French, some seem to me like Catalan and some sound like Italian. Their ortography varies greatly.

The orthography varies, as every language at this era. But, the occitan medieval language have unique particularities from others romance language, sufficiently to make medieval times recognize it as a language (roman, provencal, limosin, or even occitan was used to name it)
The language wasn't unified at XIX, some medieval usages showed it, like the Jeux Floraux, settled the reality of a different romance language. Of course we are not talking about a meridional koinè here, but a language as diverse than every other language was.

Catalan would be the most standarised and solid Occitan dialect, the only one that got a place into a chancery and a couintry's administration in Modern age.
Well, Occitan was used in the administration until 1789, the edict of Francis I concerning only latin (see the jurisprudence for this, occitan is clearly accepeted as an administrative language, just not as used as french was, for social reasons).

For it to still be Occitan, you would need one of these three scenarios:

1- King Peter II is not defeated at Muret, he keeps his overlordship over Tolosa and eventually the houses of Tolosa and Barcelona merge into a single Crown of Aragon, whose kings are Counts of Barcelona and Tolosa and they promote the use of Languedocien instead of Catalan. In the XIIIth Century, Catalan is starting to be a language different than Occitan, so this could be reversed. But Catalan would remain as a dialect.
Too late, catalan was ever too distant from occitan to be considered only as a dialect. You need a X° POD, for the more recent, when the trobadoresque culture was created.
Then, the overlordship of Aragon on the Languedocian lands was weak, at best.
Raimon VI asked Peire II for suzerain because he didn't have any real choice in 1212, just a year before the king's death, and understanding that Peire couldn't use his power on him, as Peire didn't and couldn't made anything about the Trencavel, technically his direct lieges.
Peire was ever count of Gevaudan, lord of Montpelier, suzerain of Razes, Carcasones, etc and it was still considered as belonging to the kingdom of France, not of Aragon.

2- The Moors are never driven out of Tortosa and Lleida. This Catalan would stay in the Pyrinean valleys, looking probably not so different from the Aranese variant of Occitan nowadays.
Not a bad idea, but the Aranes is close t gascon, because of the geography, the valley opening to Gascony. The *Catalan you propose would be more like languadocian, in my opinion (see the maps of prounounciation in occitan and catalan, which follow vertical lines)

3- Make the Trencavels Counts of Barcelona after the death of a childless Berenguer Ramon II, the killer of his twin brother, who also didn't had children (he did in RL, Ramon Berenguer III). An Occitan lord, and such a powerful one, whose castles became centers for Occitan culture, would certainly strenghten the relationship between Catalan and Languedocien.
Maybe a good idea, but it would be more efficient using Raimon I Trencavel, when he controlled Razes, Carcasona, Albi, Agde, Besiers et Nimes. A powerful Trencavel, sufficient to fight sucessfuly the Tolosa.
 
Not a bad idea, but the Aranes is close t gascon, because of the geography, the valley opening to Gascony. The *Catalan you propose would be more like languadocian, in my opinion (see the maps of prounounciation in occitan and catalan, which follow vertical lines)

But isn't Gascon more closer to Catalan than to Lengadocian, there was one banned forumer here, Boynamedsue told that Gascon is the most different of the Occitan dialects, more different than Standard Catalan
 
I was going to suggest Muret as well. By far the most likely of the PODs, though as other people say, the "occitan" languages weren't exactly unified at the time.
 
But isn't Gascon more closer to Catalan than to Lengadocian, there was one banned forumer here, Boynamedsue told that Gascon is the most different of the Occitan dialects, more different than Standard Catalan

No.

Gascon is indeed the most defined dialect of occitan, due to geographical borders, and non-romance superstrate (vascon).
But, the differences are purely formal ones,and, from my experience, i can understand at 100% gascon (and saying where are the differences with langadocian) when i can understand catalan more hardly.

This forumer statment is not really supported, only by some teachers.

Catalan, at the contrary, is based on the same base as occitan, but developped independently, towards Hispania, taking the same determinent system (when occitan use the El only in a really limited era, the pyreneans ones)

Seriously, gascon is more different by pronounciation.

I suggest a basic lecture "La langue occitane" of Pierre Bec, in the collection "Que-sais-je". I didn't find any work translated of him, so...
 
No.

Gascon is indeed the most defined dialect of occitan, due to geographical borders, and non-romance superstrate (vascon).
But, the differences are purely formal ones,and, from my experience, i can understand at 100% gascon (and saying where are the differences with langadocian) when i can understand catalan more hardly.

This forumer statment is not really supported, only by some teachers.

Catalan, at the contrary, is based on the same base as occitan, but developped independently, towards Hispania, taking the same determinent system (when occitan use the El only in a really limited era, the pyreneans ones)

Seriously, gascon is more different by pronounciation.

I suggest a basic lecture "La langue occitane" of Pierre Bec, in the collection "Que-sais-je". I didn't find any work translated of him, so...

Well, if I'm not mistaken, it's Bec who said that Catalan was a way of Occitan that started to become a separate language during the XIIIth Century.

Funny enough, this has been used by Valencian nationalists to deny the existence of Catalan as a real language, forged in the XIXth Century, and to assert that Valencian is a Romance language of its own with no ties to Catalan whatsoever.

Personally, I don't care, since both Catalan and Valencian are the same language, however they are called. Levantine could be a good name for both languages.
 
No.

Gascon is indeed the most defined dialect of occitan, due to geographical borders, and non-romance superstrate (vascon).
But, the differences are purely formal ones,and, from my experience, i can understand at 100% gascon (and saying where are the differences with langadocian) when i can understand catalan more hardly.

This forumer statment is not really supported, only by some teachers.

Catalan, at the contrary, is based on the same base as occitan, but developped independently, towards Hispania, taking the same determinent system (when occitan use the El only in a really limited era, the pyreneans ones)

Seriously, gascon is more different by pronounciation.

I suggest a basic lecture "La langue occitane" of Pierre Bec, in the collection "Que-sais-je". I didn't find any work translated of him, so...
I agree with that but the Roussillon Catalan is the most related dialect of Catalan to Lengadocian which is not influenced by Castillan.
 
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Well, if I'm not mistaken, it's Bec who said that Catalan was a way of Occitan that started to become a separate language during the XIIIth Century.
I didn't read it recently, but i think hewas saying that people saw the difference between Occitan and Catalan in the XII and that the catalan speakers recognized it as their language, not that Catalan was created in XIII. I will say it tonight, i have the book at home.

Funny enough, this has been used by Valencian nationalists to deny the existence of Catalan as a real language, forged in the XIXth Century, and to assert that Valencian is a Romance language of its own with no ties to Catalan whatsoever.
This sort of people never undestrood the difference between dialects and language by the way. He have Gascon aslanguage, Provencal as language, hell, i saw a guy who tried to makeme think that the Carcasonès was a distinct language!

Personally, I don't care, since both Catalan and Valencian are the same language, however they are called. Levantine could be a good name for both languages.
Usage make law i think.
 
I didn't read it recently, but i think hewas saying that people saw the difference between Occitan and Catalan in the XII and that the catalan speakers recognized it as their language, not that Catalan was created in XIII. I will say it tonight, i have the book at home.


This sort of people never undestrood the difference between dialects and language by the way. He have Gascon aslanguage, Provencal as language, hell, i saw a guy who tried to makeme think that the Carcasonès was a distinct language!


Usage make law i think.

That is what we call as Blaveros.

I think Catalan is a daughter language of Occitan.
I believe the war of the pyrenees severed the connection between Catalan and the rest of the Occitan dialects.
 
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More sister language really.
It was because of the prestige of the occitan during the Middle-Ages, the fact that many catalan nobles speak occitan, the fact that occitan was a litteracy language that catalan didn't "appear" before, but it existed.

P.S : i've read it and so, the catalan language appears in the X° from occitano-roman, and so spoken, but became a litterature language only in XIV.
 
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This sort of people never undestrood the difference between dialects and language by the way. He have Gascon aslanguage, Provencal as language, hell, i saw a guy who tried to makeme think that the Carcasonès was a distinct language!


.

Oh, that sort of people, like the blaveros, doesn't care about those things. Linguistics for them is only a excuse to pull their political agenda, not a way to reach knowledge. They are not even honestly wrong, they are deliberatily lying. They don't deserve too much attention beyond the funny note Cèsar mentions.

Cheers.
 
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