Could Catalan use the same orthography as other Occitan dialects and Portuguese and still be considered as an Occitan dialect by laypeople in the present.
What is the POD?
What is the POD?
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Could Catalan use the same orthography as other Occitan dialects and Portuguese and still be considered as an Occitan dialect by laypeople in the present.
What is the POD?
Occitan was pretty scattered and diversified. It only started to come together in the XIXth Century. I've seen several documents in Occitan from the XIVth Century. Some of them seem to be French, some seem to me like Catalan and some sound like Italian. Their ortography varies greatly.
Well, Occitan was used in the administration until 1789, the edict of Francis I concerning only latin (see the jurisprudence for this, occitan is clearly accepeted as an administrative language, just not as used as french was, for social reasons).Catalan would be the most standarised and solid Occitan dialect, the only one that got a place into a chancery and a couintry's administration in Modern age.
Too late, catalan was ever too distant from occitan to be considered only as a dialect. You need a X° POD, for the more recent, when the trobadoresque culture was created.1- King Peter II is not defeated at Muret, he keeps his overlordship over Tolosa and eventually the houses of Tolosa and Barcelona merge into a single Crown of Aragon, whose kings are Counts of Barcelona and Tolosa and they promote the use of Languedocien instead of Catalan. In the XIIIth Century, Catalan is starting to be a language different than Occitan, so this could be reversed. But Catalan would remain as a dialect.
Not a bad idea, but the Aranes is close t gascon, because of the geography, the valley opening to Gascony. The *Catalan you propose would be more like languadocian, in my opinion (see the maps of prounounciation in occitan and catalan, which follow vertical lines)2- The Moors are never driven out of Tortosa and Lleida. This Catalan would stay in the Pyrinean valleys, looking probably not so different from the Aranese variant of Occitan nowadays.
Maybe a good idea, but it would be more efficient using Raimon I Trencavel, when he controlled Razes, Carcasona, Albi, Agde, Besiers et Nimes. A powerful Trencavel, sufficient to fight sucessfuly the Tolosa.3- Make the Trencavels Counts of Barcelona after the death of a childless Berenguer Ramon II, the killer of his twin brother, who also didn't had children (he did in RL, Ramon Berenguer III). An Occitan lord, and such a powerful one, whose castles became centers for Occitan culture, would certainly strenghten the relationship between Catalan and Languedocien.
Not a bad idea, but the Aranes is close t gascon, because of the geography, the valley opening to Gascony. The *Catalan you propose would be more like languadocian, in my opinion (see the maps of prounounciation in occitan and catalan, which follow vertical lines)
But isn't Gascon more closer to Catalan than to Lengadocian, there was one banned forumer here, Boynamedsue told that Gascon is the most different of the Occitan dialects, more different than Standard Catalan
No.
Gascon is indeed the most defined dialect of occitan, due to geographical borders, and non-romance superstrate (vascon).
But, the differences are purely formal ones,and, from my experience, i can understand at 100% gascon (and saying where are the differences with langadocian) when i can understand catalan more hardly.
This forumer statment is not really supported, only by some teachers.
Catalan, at the contrary, is based on the same base as occitan, but developped independently, towards Hispania, taking the same determinent system (when occitan use the El only in a really limited era, the pyreneans ones)
Seriously, gascon is more different by pronounciation.
I suggest a basic lecture "La langue occitane" of Pierre Bec, in the collection "Que-sais-je". I didn't find any work translated of him, so...
I agree with that but the Roussillon Catalan is the most related dialect of Catalan to Lengadocian which is not influenced by Castillan.No.
Gascon is indeed the most defined dialect of occitan, due to geographical borders, and non-romance superstrate (vascon).
But, the differences are purely formal ones,and, from my experience, i can understand at 100% gascon (and saying where are the differences with langadocian) when i can understand catalan more hardly.
This forumer statment is not really supported, only by some teachers.
Catalan, at the contrary, is based on the same base as occitan, but developped independently, towards Hispania, taking the same determinent system (when occitan use the El only in a really limited era, the pyreneans ones)
Seriously, gascon is more different by pronounciation.
I suggest a basic lecture "La langue occitane" of Pierre Bec, in the collection "Que-sais-je". I didn't find any work translated of him, so...
I didn't read it recently, but i think hewas saying that people saw the difference between Occitan and Catalan in the XII and that the catalan speakers recognized it as their language, not that Catalan was created in XIII. I will say it tonight, i have the book at home.Well, if I'm not mistaken, it's Bec who said that Catalan was a way of Occitan that started to become a separate language during the XIIIth Century.
This sort of people never undestrood the difference between dialects and language by the way. He have Gascon aslanguage, Provencal as language, hell, i saw a guy who tried to makeme think that the Carcasonès was a distinct language!Funny enough, this has been used by Valencian nationalists to deny the existence of Catalan as a real language, forged in the XIXth Century, and to assert that Valencian is a Romance language of its own with no ties to Catalan whatsoever.
Usage make law i think.Personally, I don't care, since both Catalan and Valencian are the same language, however they are called. Levantine could be a good name for both languages.
I didn't read it recently, but i think hewas saying that people saw the difference between Occitan and Catalan in the XII and that the catalan speakers recognized it as their language, not that Catalan was created in XIII. I will say it tonight, i have the book at home.
This sort of people never undestrood the difference between dialects and language by the way. He have Gascon aslanguage, Provencal as language, hell, i saw a guy who tried to makeme think that the Carcasonès was a distinct language!
Usage make law i think.
This sort of people never undestrood the difference between dialects and language by the way. He have Gascon aslanguage, Provencal as language, hell, i saw a guy who tried to makeme think that the Carcasonès was a distinct language!
.