Catalan-Occitan nation in Iberia/France?

Catalan and Occitan are extremely close as languages, and Aragon and the south of France are quite similar, especially on the coast. Is it possible that a nation state could have formed here uniting these regions? I'm thinking an Aragon that doesn't merge with Spain might take these areas from France eventually. Or if we go further back and delay France's formation a state of its own may develop. What do you think?
 

Alcuin

Banned
Catalan and Occitan are extremely close as languages, and Aragon and the south of France are quite similar, especially on the coast. Is it possible that a nation state could have formed here uniting these regions? I'm thinking an Aragon that doesn't merge with Spain might take these areas from France eventually. Or if we go further back and delay France's formation a state of its own may develop. What do you think?

That's easy. If there is no crusade against the Cathars (or if de Montfort is unsuccessful) then sooner or later the Counties of Barcelona and Toulouse and the Kingdom of Aragon become one. There's not even going to be constant conflict across the Borders (except perhaps over Corsica and Sardinia and also the border between Pays D'Oc and Savoy-Piedmont).

If there are no Cathars, the same thing happens, so... a later invasion by the Ottoman Turks, Bulgaria survives longer and Bogomilism becomes at least tolerated and possibly dominant. (No Bogomil refugees means no Cathars).
 

Alcuin

Banned
No they're not. At least, they are not more similar to each other than they are to Spanish and French respectively.

David Crystal, in the Cambridge Encyclopaedia of Language http://www.crystalreference.com/dc/ says that the two are mutually comprehensible to a greater extent than either is with French or Spanish.

I've never read any Occitan so I wouldn't know for sure but I find Catalan seems to me closer to French than Spanish.
 
Which reminds me; wasn't Catalonia heavily settled with peasants from the Provence after it was reconquered from the Moors?
 
Modern Catalan and Occitan are quite distinct, but that is the result of a degree of literary standardisation. In the medieval period, much of the area was part of a dialect cline that for quite some time was referred to as 'Romance' and to many contemporaries was Latin. Some forms of medieval Catalan are closer to some forms of medieval Occitan than to other forms of medieval Catalan, just like some Provencal is closer to Italian than more westerly Occitan.

The south could have gone its own separate ways until the 13th century. As to a later attempt at something like what you have in mind, check out the 'Vivaldi Journeys'.
 
I've been working on a timeline (seemingly forever) where Eleanor of Aquitaine marries Sancho of Navarre instead of Henry II. Their descendants rule an empire that eventually stretches from the Loire to the Alps to the Ebro, plus more (including Savoy, sardinia, corsica and the Balearics. Early on a university is founded and a grammary produced that attempts to standardize the language around 1200. I call it Navarrese in my timeline, but it incorporates elements of Occitan, Catalan, Provencal, Basque, Italian and Latin. Except for Basque, they are all Latin based. The first 3 I believe were mutually intelligible around this time, even though they may have diverged later.

Hope to get the full tl up early next week.
 

Glen

Moderator
I've been working on a timeline (seemingly forever) where Eleanor of Aquitaine marries Sancho of Navarre instead of Henry II. Their descendants rule an empire that eventually stretches from the Loire to the Alps to the Ebro, plus more (including Savoy, sardinia, corsica and the Balearics. Early on a university is founded and a grammary produced that attempts to standardize the language around 1200. I call it Navarrese in my timeline, but it incorporates elements of Occitan, Catalan, Provencal, Basque, Italian and Latin. Except for Basque, they are all Latin based. The first 3 I believe were mutually intelligible around this time, even though they may have diverged later.

Hope to get the full tl up early next week.

I'd focus on the 'Oc languages for your Navarrese. Basque is a non-starter, Latin unnecessary (they already are heavily related, in fact as the sciences get started, probably will just see it even more latinized in vocabulary, though not structure), Italian is a bit odd here, and I wouldn't expect it to be considered (heck, at the time you're talking, there is no standard 'Italian' per se...though you might give thought to some Ligurian bits). Basque will remain on the outs, except for a few loan words.
 
For language : As occitan-speaker i can understand a great part of a catalan speech.
Of course they're some differences and it's distinct languages, but the difference is due to prononciation, some graphic different uses, castillan/french influence.
In the timeline i'm working on, i would make catalan, due to different cultural expension, rather a franco-provencal regards french situation for occitan : not really just another dialect, but not a complete distinct language.
And, no, Provencal is really closer to all other occitans dialects with a virtual 90% (in radical cases) of inter-comprehension. Only graphic differencies CAN cause some difficulties. But in oral, no problems. Provencal is a dialect, not a language.

For prononciation, some uses are settled in vertical zones, as one sound use in Gasconha and Western Catalunya, others in Lengadoc and Easter Catalunya.

For further explanation, Pierre Bec have made vulagrizing books on occitan. But i don't know if it were translated

For a state : somes possibilities
Early Middle-Ages : surviving Kingdom of Tolosa
High Middle-Ages : surviving Kingdom of Aquitaine
Classic Middle-Ages : victorious Kingdom of Aragon in 1213 ( Battle of Muret) or a Burgondy-like destiny for Raimondine dynasty?
French Revolution : Girondine sucessful creation of "République du Midi" (a real proposition made by few revolutionnaries, not an occitan republic, more meridional french oriented)


Maybe you can work with a surviving occitan Poitou. Due to diseases ofr High Middle-Ages, to the continual invasion of Aquitaine by Franks who make Loire zone depopulated (much like southern Asturias in early reconquista), occitanophone population was replaced by francophone colonization, until Gironde.
 
Last edited:
Top