Castille and Aragon never unite

Condottiero · Feb 24, 2006

Max Sinister said:
I also wonder about an "encircling Castille" strategy would work - i.e. a unification of Portugal, Aragon, Navarre and maybe Granada.

It would not work: civil war in Granada/extreme weakness; civil war in Navarre; Aragon had not recovered from the BD and was looking for allies seeking to recover their territories in Italy.

Portugal in this scenario saw the union with Castille as a possibility of backing up their territorial/commercial ambitions. With castillian manpower and military they could create an strong chain of outposts from the Iberian peninsula to India. Maybe they could even annex Congo, south Africa...

Othniel · Feb 24, 2006

Max Sinister said:
I also wonder about an "encircling Castille" strategy would work - i.e. a unification of Portugal, Aragon, Navarre and maybe Granada.

How about something earlier, like in the 1200s...? Keep Leon from premanantly or being bound to Castille at all....

Wendell · Feb 24, 2006

Maybe if we can give France Navarre...

Nicole · Feb 25, 2006

Wendell said:
Maybe if we can give France Navarre...

Navarre's really small, though... I don't know if would have that much effect (And I'd like to see it stay independent

)

Wendell · Feb 25, 2006

Imajin said:
Navarre's really small, though... I don't know if would have that much effect (And I'd like to see it stay independent )

It might not have much effect besides keep France focused on blocking an Iberia-wide state from forming?

Condottiero · Feb 27, 2006

But it could not enter in a Castille encircling strategy as Aragon would also feel threatened. You could also have a POD where Aragon and Navarre remain united and allied to England while Castille is allied to France in a HYW scenario (quite close to OTL).

htgriffin · Feb 27, 2006

Condottiero said:
What about Navarre? Without castillian support I do not think he would defy the french there, but on the other hand if he does not take it, it is an open door for the french army.

England?

An Anglo-Navarran union could find itself reasonably important in the North Atlantic.

HTG

Wendell · Feb 27, 2006

htgriffin said:
England?

An Anglo-Navarran union could find itself reasonably important in the North Atlantic.

HTG

And there could be incentives for Navarre.

Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy · Feb 28, 2006

htgriffin said:
An Anglo-Navarran union could find itself reasonably important in the North Atlantic.

Navarre lost its coastline quite early.

I think they'll become buffer between France, Castile, and Aragon. Or be divided between them.

Iñaki · Feb 28, 2006

Sorry for my english (I am from Spain and my level is not ... very brilliant

)

A possible POD for a victory of Juana la Beltraneja against Isabel and Fernando of Aragon is the battle of Toro in 1476 during the Castilian Succesion War in this battle in OTL the portuguese army was defeated by Isabel and Fernando but if the portuguese win it could be a clear victory that gives the throne to Juana la Beltraneja.

Respect to the future is possible that Fernando continues married with Isabel to make possible in a future himself or their descendents a renewal of the war and the claims against the new kingdom of Castilla-Portugal.

Possible allies of Aragon would be England since 1485 when the war of Roses ends and Henry VII begin his realm.

Possible allies of Castilla-Portugal: the French kingdom, with Aragon and the french clashing in Italia is a natural alliance.

So is possible that around 1490 there would a war between Castilla-Portugal and France against Aragon and England (and possibly these two last allied with Maximilian of Habsburg -Maximilian and the french fighting for Burgundy).

Rick Robinson · Feb 28, 2006

Iñaki said:
Sorry for my english

Your English is fine! If you hadn't mentioned it, the only thing I'd have noticed is that you use the Spanish form of proper names!

(e.g., Fernando instead of "Ferdinand")

If Ferdinand stays married to Isabel, that sets up an ongoing grudge match, with her claim being passed down in the Aragonese royal line. (The POD butterflies their actual children; their lives will be different enough that they'll have different children, possibly including a surviving son.)

England was traditionally allied with Portugal, so it might well ally with Spain (i.e., Castile-Portugal) - unless it allies with France, which will surely push England the other way. Henry VII was not eager for a war in the 1490s, since his throne was still pretty shaky, but he may get pulled in if he marries his son to a daughter of Ferd and Izzy. Who is not the OTL Catherine of Aragon, even if her name is Catalina, so she may eventually bear Henry VIII, or even Arthur, a surviving son.

But what happens in Italy? The French are unlikely to be pushed right out, so do things end with northern Italy under French influence and southern Italy linked to Aragon?

-- Rick

Iñaki · Feb 28, 2006

Originally posted by Rick Robinson
Your English is fine!

Thanks a lot!

I was having fear to make grammar mistakes and to use words that is not in the English dictionary.

Originally posted by Rick Robinson
Henry VII was not eager for a war in the 1490s, since his throne was still pretty shaky, but he may get pulled in if he marries his son to a daughter of Ferd and Izzy.

Yes you have reason, I remember too that Henry was very cautious, the only manner to make him a firm ally of Aragon is to marry his son to a daughter of Fernando and Isabel.

Originally posted by Rick Robinson
But what happens in Italy? The French are unlikely to be pushed right out, so do things end with northern Italy under French influence and southern Italy linked to Aragon?

You are right, I believe that in this ATL, like that you say, the situation in Italy ends in a partition (with Papal States as buffer state) between France and Aragon.
The problem for Aragon is that in OTL the victories over France in Italy in this period was achieved thanks to the skills of the castilian militar Fernando Gonzalez of Cordoba ("The Great Captain")
Gonzalo was born in 1453 so in the time of the battle of Toro in 1476 he is 23 years old, in OTL and in this ATL Gonzalo fight for the rights of Isabel against Juana la Beltraneja.
So with the victory of Juana or Gonzalo has to flee to Aragon or is possible that dies fighting against the victorious portuguese, but althoug he is living in the exile in Aragon it is very unlikely that in the future he commands the troops in Italia.

But we have Maximilian of Habsburg. What do you think about Maximilian? Is it possible an alliance between the Habsburg and Aragon to expel the french out of Italy?

Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy · Mar 1, 2006

Iñaki said:
But we have Maximilian of Habsburg. What do you think about Maximilian?

The French might try to make him emperor of Mexico after they defeat the Aztecs.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Iñaki · Mar 1, 2006

originally posted by VoCSe
The French might try to make him emperor of Mexico after they defeat the Aztecs.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

No problem

.

Poor Maximilian (1459-1519) you are less popular than Maximilian (1832-1867)

So talking about emperor Maximilian I (1459-1519) Is possible an alliance between The Habsburg and Aragon to expel out the french from Italy? and this alliance would serve too to help Maximilian (1459-1519) in his claims against France in Burgundy?

ruisramos · Mar 1, 2006

What about this?

What if Portugal, Castille and Aragon proceeded a three way "Reconquista" of the muslin Iberia? Then finally they clash over the conquest of Grenade. Being smaller, Portugal and Aragon ally against Castille.

As a result, The Castillan Kingdom is defeated. Portugal takes Galicia, while Aragon gets Grenade and Murcia. The Kingdom of Lyon is given it's independence as a tributary state of Portugal and the remainder stays with Castille and Navarre is considered within the sphere of Aragon.

Iñaki · Mar 1, 2006

Hmm, Hmmm poor Maximilian (1459-1519). Where are you Scooby Doo? err I want to say Where are you Maximilian?

originally posted by ruisramos
Navarre is considered within the sphere of Aragon.

This Navarre would include Basque Country? Basque Country was of Navarre until 1200 when it was ceded to Castilla, if Navarre includes Basque Country it can be very interesting for Aragon because it permits an aragonese naval base in the Atlantic: so Aragon is not only a mediterranean power it could be too an atlantic power.

Othniel · Mar 1, 2006

Iñaki said:
Hmm, Hmmm poor Maximilian (1459-1519). Where are you Scooby Doo? err I want to say Where are you Maximilian?

This Navarre would include Basque Country? Basque Country was of Navarre until 1200 when it was ceded to Castilla, if Navarre includes Basque Country it can be very interesting for Aragon because it permits an aragonese naval base in the Atlantic: so Aragon is not only a mediterranean power it could be too an atlantic power.

With a short coastline, thus easily blockaded...

ruisramos · Mar 2, 2006

Here goes

The map of the new Iberia:

View attachment IP.bmp

Condottiero · Mar 2, 2006

ruisramos said:
What if Portugal, Castille and Aragon proceeded a three way "Reconquista" of the muslin Iberia? Then finally they clash over the conquest of Grenade. Being smaller, Portugal and Aragon ally against Castille.

As a result, The Castillan Kingdom is defeated. Portugal takes Galicia, while Aragon gets Grenade and Murcia. The Kingdom of Lyon is given it's independence as a tributary state of Portugal and the remainder stays with Castille and Navarre is considered within the sphere of Aragon.

There was an agreement between Portugal, Castille and Aragon as for the distribution of lands retaken from the Moors. For instance Murcia was conquered by Aragon but as it was outside their "area of expansion" it was ceded back by the king of Aragón to the King of Castille.

The scenario you are depicting is almost ASB.

* Demographic issue: Castille had much more population than the combination of Portugal and Aragon. It could raise bigger armies and had only to worry about their terrritories in the Iberian peninsula not about possesions in Italy.
Aragón had been punished very badly by the black death, losing almost one third of their population.

* Dinastic issue: the kings of Aragon and Castille belonged to the same family: the Trastamara.

Moreover why would Portugal try to engage in a war against Castille when they could claim the crown through a marriage of the portuguese king or the heir with "la Beltraneja" or even Isabel?

There was a proposal of marrying Isabel to the King and "la Beltraneja" to the heir with the condition that the descendants of Don Manuel and "La Beltraneja" would inherit both kingdoms. That would have been the perfect solution for Portugal as it would have been accepted by the followers of both ladies.

The Professor · Mar 2, 2006

Further to TTL's Spanish (Porto-Castilian) presence/monopoly in the East Indies driving out the Dutch this would lead the Dutch conducting further exploration to find alternatives. They or the English and French following them would discover the Americas.
I'd still expect the Spanish to have a presence in TTL South America but the Dutch,English, and French would start with greater territory - poss no or later collapse of Aztec -> less Spanish North America.