Carthaginians in America

No, to give them immunity you need a POD after the Black Death, in other words, around the year 1375, at least, and continuous contact with Europe or Asia.

Why? Jared Diamond claims that diseases that decimate American Indians, like measles or smallpox, are of animal origin and have been associated with the people of the Old World for thousands of years.
 
Why? Jared Diamond claims that diseases that decimate American Indians, like measles or smallpox, are of animal origin and have been associated with the people of the Old World for thousands of years.

1 - Diseases are always evolving. People from 1300 were not prepared for the Black Death, people from previous times would not be prepared too.

2 - If your refugees bring some disease with them, that disease will burn out and disappear quickly, without the disease around the chance of the population keep resistance against it for thousands of years is close to zero.

3 - Even if you had brought many domestic animals to the new world and the indians started to use them, it would not give the indians resistence to old world diseases. What it could happen, maybe, would be that the New World could give birth to a new disease strong enough to spread to Europe and Asia like the Black Death, maybe.
 
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If they established themselves in the Caribbean, they would facilitate easier links between Eastern North America, Mesoamerica, and the coast of Brazil which would be huge. And then if they got back to Africa by following the currents, they could introduce cassava to sub-Saharan Africa and eventually corn and other non-Andean (not likely to have much contact with the Andean cultural area, sadly) New World crops to the Old World. Would be cool if the Eastern Agricultural Complex could get involved somehow, and Europeans making as much or more use than the American Indians did.

Will arrival of people from the Old World cause pandemics of infectious diseases among natives just like the arrival of Spaniards? Would they be immune to European diseases later?

I doubt major diseases would be carried with the fleet. They'd burn themselves out there, if they were brought to begin with (abandon a ship with the diseased to its fate). But possibly some diseases might be transmitted through asymptomatic carriers, but they'd cause the deaths of maybe 5% of natives at most.

1 - Diseases area always evolving. People from 1300 were not prepared for the Black Death, people from previous times would not be prepared too.

2 - If your refugees bring some disease with them, that disease will burn out and disappear quickly, without the disease around the chance of the population keep resistance against it for thousands of years is close to zero.

3 - Even if you had brought many domestic animals to the new world and the indians started to use them, it would not give the indians resistence to old world diseases. What it could happen, maybe, would be that the New World could give birth to a new disease strong enough to spread to Europe and Asia like the Black Death, maybe.

Yep. But a disease introduced to a high-population area like the Andes or Mesoamerica would survive and become endemic, wouldn't it? The evolved form would cause a nasty plague in Europeans, although it would be like a bad smallpox epidemic and not like the Black Death or smallpox was to the American Indians. The good part about Carthaginians is they might be able to transmit some agricultural knowhow, along with metal plows and such, which might be beneficial to the people of Mesoamerica, the Woodland cultures of the Eastern Agricultural Complex, etc. Ideally that and the cultural change they'd bring about would mean a higher population density in Eastern North America and thus an environment for disease to be more established in that it gives immunity.

If Carthaginians introduced influenza to the Americas (which would kill a fuckton of people as it did OTL), then American influenza would evolve in isolation to Eurasian influenza for centuries. When reintroduced to Europeans, it would create a very bad influenza plague, about as bad as the Spanish Flu if not worse. But I don't believe you'd get a new Black Death out of it.
 
1 - Diseases area always evolving. People from 1300 were not prepared for the Black Death, people from previous times would not be prepared too.
Black Death collected such a large harvest in the XIV century, because Europe was overpopulated and its inhabitants were undernourished. This has reduced their resistance to disease. Even then, Black Death did not kill such a large percentage of Europeans as European diseases in America. For example, the population of Mexico decreased from 25 million to 2 million in the years 1519-1610 - by more than 90%.
If your refugees bring some disease with them, that disease will burn out and disappear quickly, without the disease around the chance of the population keep resistance against it for thousands of years is close to zero.
During the Mexican conquest, a one sick slave from the Cortes expedition caused a huge epidemic of smallpox.
 
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ATP45

Banned
Before to the 3rd Punic War, a large group of refugees (around 2-3,000 people) decided to leave Carthage and find a new homeland far from the areas controlled by Rome. They leave the Mediterranean Sea and flow west until they finally reach Antilles and decide to settle there. How will the rise of a civilized community in America affect the development of indigenous cultures? Will the people of New Carthage stay in touch with Europe?
if they try Columbus route,why not? Problem is,2-3 thousends in ocean of indians change nothing.They could not contact home becouse of Romans,so ....Columbus will meet indians with galleys and bronze weapons.In long term - nothing change.
 
if they try Columbus route,why not? Problem is,2-3 thousends in ocean of indians change nothing.They could not contact home becouse of Romans,so ....Columbus will meet indians with galleys and bronze weapons.In long term - nothing change.
Everything can change. Carthaginian settlers can initiate a developed civilization in America.
 
if they try Columbus route,why not? Problem is,2-3 thousends in ocean of indians change nothing.They could not contact home becouse of Romans,so ....Columbus will meet indians with galleys and bronze weapons.In long term - nothing change.

Aside from the fact you'd change the history of the Caribbean so much that you might not even have the Taino and Arawaks there when the Europeans show up. And the fact you now have a trading-based culture established which links up all the cultures in the regions to a far greater degree than before. And they also have new crops, plus an alphabet to further facilitate cultural development.

This is absolutely huge, and the Spanish or whoever would be lucky to get past the Caribbean. There'd be some very powerful players contesting them. Disease gives Europeans an advantage at first, but it's nowhere near enough to colonise EVERYTHING as OTL. Again, they won't get much past the Caribbean except for concessions like a New World version of Hong Kong.
 
Carthaginians could very well land in the Canary Islands and colonize all of Macaronesia easily. From there,they could build up their numbers and explore the Atlantic,reaching the Caribbean in a few centuries. Now granted,they'll run into the Taino and Carib people. They have the ability to reach the Caribbean and once there,they can reach Mesoamerica and set up trade with the Olmecs and Mayans. They might even be able to get into Florida,if there's enough incentive for trade. And Native Americans get horses,goats,sheep,pigs and cattle early on. And you just might see some hybrid cultures rising out of all this.
 
Carthaginians could very well land in the Canary Islands and colonize all of Macaronesia easily. From there,they could build up their numbers and explore the Atlantic,reaching the Caribbean in a few centuries. Now granted,they'll run into the Taino and Carib people. They have the ability to reach the Caribbean and once there,they can reach Mesoamerica and set up trade with the Olmecs and Mayans. They might even be able to get into Florida,if there's enough incentive for trade. And Native Americans get horses,goats,sheep,pigs and cattle early on. And you just might see some hybrid cultures rising out of all this.

Actually they wouldn't run into the Taino and the Caribs since those groups weren't in the Caribbean until the middle of the 1st millennium or so.

The Canarian Carthaginians with their distance from Rome would be a good vassal of Rome, especially in their ability of keeping Berber pirates subdued/occupied.
 
Lack of navigation skills is the main problem, not improper ships. Atlantic could be crossed even with primitive rafts, like the one used by Heyerdahl, but unlike Carthaginians Heyerdahl knew that there is land on the other side of Ocean and where it is located. From perspective of ancients idea of sailing west, into unknown waters would be viewed as equal to suicide.

They could make a pit stop at Brittania Inferior (it was known to exist, but the extent of the island was unknown and it could have been another continent for all they knew) to restock on supplies and then go to Americas by accident. I imagine an aim towards one of the little islands, then a storm blows them off course. The third step is them looking at maps, not figuring out where they were, and say "screw it, pick a random direction. We're lost so any direction could be unknown waters and it's suicide every way"
 
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