Carthaginian Roman Client State

What if, after the third Punic War, Rome turned Carthage into a client state? Effectly allowing Carthage to survive. Instead of, in our timeline destroying Carthage. Would anything change in North Africa?

Probably a long shot but is it possible that after the fall of the Roman Empire that Carthage could be reborn, maybe trying their hands at an empire again.
 
other historic parallels?

Kinda, the only one I can think of is Parthia but they didn't wait 400+ years to create a Second Persian Empire. My idea relies on Carthaginian (Punic) culture not only surviving surviving but thriving in part of North Africa to the point that the Punic people have idealized people like Hannibal Barca to the point of mythology, like many of the Greek heroes of the Trojan War. So the Punic people feel a type of duty to Punicize the world, or at least you have a Punic leader who thinks all Non-Punics are barbarians.
 

Deleted member 97083

Kinda, the only one I can think of is Parthia but they didn't wait 400+ years to create a Second Persian Empire. My idea relies on Carthaginian (Punic) culture not only surviving surviving but thriving in part of North Africa to the point that the Punic people have idealized people like Hannibal Barca to the point of mythology, like many of the Greek heroes of the Trojan War. So the Punic people feel a type of duty to Punicize the world, or at least you have a Punic leader who thinks all Non-Punics are barbarians.
That could happen honestly with a POD as late as the 7th century AD or even later.

The Byzantines came to identify with people like Seleucus, Antiochus, and Alexander as well as the Romans. So a Roman remnant state in North Africa could very well identify with Numidian kings and Carthaginian generals as part of its history. Hannibal and Caesar would be seen as both constructors of that nation.

They wouldn't be Punic nationalists though.
 
That could happen honestly with a POD as late as the 7th century AD or even later.

The Byzantines came to identify with people like Seleucus, Antiochus, and Alexander as well as the Romans. So a Roman remnant state in North Africa could very well identify with Numidian kings and Carthaginian generals as part of its history. Hannibal and Caesar would be seen as both constructors of that nation.

I'm very interested now. So, how would this work?
 

Deleted member 97083

I'm very interested now. So, how would this work?
A Roman usurper takes over North Africa, a Roman emperor relocates to Carthage, or a Roman Emperor loses everything but Carthage, leading to a new kingdom being established. Alternatively, the Vandal kingdom lasts longer and makes compromises with the Roman nobility and Berber peasantry.

In any of these cases, it will become advantageous a few centuries later for kings/emperors/exarchs of North Africa to make an ex post facto justification for their rule and a national myth for the upper classes to follow. They'll naturally look to significant figures in the history of the city of Carthage, which will include Hannibal (for obvious reasons), and Caesar (not only as Roman leader but also as the rebuilder of Carthage), King Massinissa of Numidia (for his role in the Battle of Zama), Queen Dido, probably St. Augustine of Hippo, and others.

It's unlikely they'll ever forget about these figures if they retain any sort of literate culture, so it only takes an intellectual renaissance (which happened several times in the so-called "Dark Ages", the Carolingian renaissance and Macedonian renaissance for example) and national refiguring (in the case of crisis or an ambitious king) for these historical characters to be re-examined and placed into a national "identity". Even if this doesn't happen in an organized fashion, you'll see literati of North Africa making allusions to these characters, and if any of them happen to be great generals themselves, they'll definitely want to make comparisons to the great figures of the past like Hannibal. Eventually this will increase over time until there is a culture of referring to North African and Roman leaders.
 
A Roman usurper takes over North Africa, a Roman emperor relocates to Carthage, or a Roman Emperor loses everything but Carthage, leading to a new kingdom being established. Alternatively, the Vandal kingdom lasts longer and makes compromises with the Roman nobility and Berber peasantry.

In any of these cases, it will become advantageous a few centuries later for kings/emperors/exarchs of North Africa to make an ex post facto justification for their rule and a national myth for the upper classes to follow. They'll naturally look to significant figures in the history of the city of Carthage, which will include Hannibal (for obvious reasons), and Caesar (not only as Roman leader but also as the rebuilder of Carthage), King Massinissa of Numidia (for his role in the Battle of Zama), Queen Dido, probably St. Augustine of Hippo, and others.

It's unlikely they'll ever forget about these figures if they retain any sort of literate culture, so it only takes an intellectual renaissance (which happened several times in the so-called "Dark Ages", the Carolingian renaissance and Macedonian renaissance for example) and national refiguring (in the case of crisis or an ambitious king) for these historical characters to be re-examined and placed into a national "identity". Even if this doesn't happen in an organized fashion, you'll see literati of North Africa making allusions to these characters, and if any of them happen to be great generals themselves, they'll definitely want to make comparisons to the great figures of the past like Hannibal. Eventually this will increase over time until there is a culture of referring to North African and Roman leaders.

Wow. This would make an amazing Alternate History Timeline. I'm gonna start working on that actually, thank you.

One other thing, how long could Carthage as a single nation survive? Granted they will eventually fall as an empire but Punic culture will still spread likely creating other Punic or Punistic Kingdoms, but how long could a Carthaginian Kingdom or Carthaginian Nation-State survive? Or would it be like Greece? Rise and fall until eventually becoming completely united?
 

Deleted member 97083

One other thing, how long could Carthage as a single nation survive? Granted they will eventually fall as an empire but Punic culture will still spread likely creating other Punic or Punistic Kingdoms, but how long could a Carthaginian Kingdom or Carthaginian Nation-State survive? Or would it be like Greece? Rise and fall until eventually becoming completely united?
Their fate will probably be as varied as that of the Byzantine Empire, so there is no telling how long it may last. There will be times of decline and times of restoration. Carthage is pretty protected from invasion if it's got a strong navy, although it will always be a target due to its importance in trade, and the Berber tribes may pose a threat overland. If the POD is post-Islam then the Roman-Carthaginian empire will have capable Arab armies to worry about, but it's not a death sentence.

There won't be much of a Punic culture in terms of a direct continuation from the previous Punic culture, although it is possible that a new syncretic culture could be named Punic while actually being Berber, Latin, or Greek derived with only some direct Punic influences. The predominant urban language was North African Romance though there were some Punic speaking centers. The main rural language, and majority language was probably Berber. However, perhaps Arab foederati could assimilate into Punic and that could boost it. Vandals might even become Punic if they are forced into the peasantry without being killed. But in general, the Punic language is going to be an absorbed substratum with something else taking over, unless the population is boosted somehow.

If the new Roman-Carthaginian state is formed by a Byzantine Emperor's relocation, then there may be a significant Greek population especially if the Empire holds onto Sicily. This will be another factor that could affect the trajectory, cultural, religious, and political, of the new state.

Whether it rises and falls, or rises and rises and falls, etc. will be up to the POD and specific circumstances of the TL.
 
Also, one last thing. With this timeline could we possibly see a Baal Hammon monotheism, Baalism if you will, or Hammonism. The single worship of Lord Hammon. Or by that time is it too late?
 

Deleted member 97083

Also, one last thing. With this timeline could we possibly see a Baal Hammon monotheism, Baalism if you will, or Hammonism. The single worship of Lord Hammon. Or by that time is it too late?
Carthage can't go back to paganism after being Christian for so long. But you could have a literate class deeply interested with pagan legends in terms of fictional writing and allegory (see Greco-Roman and medieval obsession with Ancient Greek pagan myth).
 
Carthage can't go back to paganism after being Christian for so long. But you could have a literate class deeply interested with pagan legends in terms of fictional writing and allegory (see Greco-Roman and medieval obsession with Ancient Greek pagan myth).

Yeah I thought so. Thank you for all your help. You've given me so many ideas for an alternate Carthaginian/Punic history.
 
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