Carthaginian Iberia lasts longer

What if the Carthaginians in Iberia survives the fall of Carthage and the rise of the Roman Empire? How does this affect the history of the region?

Nova Carthage, as it would have likely been called would have been a Punic reformation of sorts.

If Carthage is smart they will centralize, try to unite the whole of Iberia and form a Iberi-Punic culture. Carthage will become something of a lost cause, a legend really.

Now, best case scenario Nova Carthage survives the Third Punic War and doesn't focus so much on Mediterranean trade. After all, that's what started the Punic Wars in the first place, control over the Mediterranean. Instead Nova Carthage could work with the Iberian, Celtiberian, Gallic and Berber tribes likely giving them more of a chance of surviving Roman expansionism then in our timeline.

Today, assuming Nova Carthage or some successor also survives German migration in the 5th century , assuming it happens at all. Iberia as we know it would be very Greek influenced. Iberians really would just be unrecognizable by today's idea of an Iberian. Iverians would be a mix of Phoenicians, Greeks, Celts, native Iberians and Berber peoples and influences.

Just to throw this out there, I would love to see if Baal Hammon survives. The Cult of Baal Hammon could easily get stronger from the fall of Carthage. The Punic people could see the fall of Carthage as a time to redeem themselves of their mistakes.

Oh and yes before you ask, eventually there would likely be a Fourth Punic War.
 
It fell to the Romans long before Carthage did.

I believe the poster means what if Iberia didn't. What if the Romans just ignored Nova Carthage (Iberian Carthage), instead going straight for Carthage itself. For what ever reason, maybe Rome can't make it through the Iberians and Celtiberians tribes, maybe there is still a strong Punic navy and it successfully defends Southern Iberia from invasion, etc. Nova Carthage and Rome could sign a peace treaty after that. Depending on how long peace lasts, Iberia and surrounding peoples could be very different then in our timeline.
 
Perhaps the first Roman Invasion of North Africa goes very well, succeeding in crippling Carthage during the First Punic War. An easy PoD would be the Spartan commander, Xanthippus, never arrives to whip the Carthaginians into shape. The Romans at that point were out for blood, and if they keep winning battles the Carthaginian Empire, not just in Sicily but in general, could be destroyed, with Libyans joining the Romans and in the peace them just being reduced to Carthage and a few nearby cities. In the alt Second Punic War, their attempts at rebellion are defeated quickly and Carthage is absorbed into Rome, but Hannibal alongside some of the Carthaginian Army escapes to Spain and builds some sort of society there.

Long term, they don't have a great shot at survival. Spain is rich in resources and Rome wants those resources. With the Punic Wars holding them back, Rome is stronger than ever, and may consolidate even more even quicker. They are at the very least going to want Northern and Western Spain, where in the latter case they at least have some case for taking due to the Greek colonies there. So maybe a Punic-Iberian culture lives on in Southern Iberia, but it inevitably becomes a vassal state of Rome and probably is integrated at some point.
 
Have it secede due to infighting within the Carthaginian oligarchy, my vague understanding is that Iberia was colonised by Barca family initiative? Any which way, have the Barca's or another oligarchy faction or family set up shop as their personal fiefdom, secede, avoid Rome for a time and consolidate power.
 
Nova Carthage, as it would have likely been called would have been a Punic reformation of sorts.

If Carthage is smart they will centralize, try to unite the whole of Iberia and form a Iberi-Punic culture. Carthage will become something of a lost cause, a legend really.

Now, best case scenario Nova Carthage survives the Third Punic War and doesn't focus so much on Mediterranean trade. After all, that's what started the Punic Wars in the first place, control over the Mediterranean. Instead Nova Carthage could work with the Iberian, Celtiberian, Gallic and Berber tribes likely giving them more of a chance of surviving Roman expansionism then in our timeline.

Today, assuming Nova Carthage or some successor also survives German migration in the 5th century , assuming it happens at all. Iberia as we know it would be very Greek influenced. Iberians really would just be unrecognizable by today's idea of an Iberian. Iverians would be a mix of Phoenicians, Greeks, Celts, native Iberians and Berber peoples and influences.

Just to throw this out there, I would love to see if Baal Hammon survives. The Cult of Baal Hammon could easily get stronger from the fall of Carthage. The Punic people could see the fall of Carthage as a time to redeem themselves of their mistakes.

Oh and yes before you ask, eventually there would likely be a Fourth Punic War.

Do you think the Punic language have as large of a spread in Iberia as it did in North Africa during the late Republic/early Empire?
 
Do you think the Punic language have as large of a spread in Iberia as it did in North Africa during the late Republic/early Empire?

Well no, the language we would see form in this alternate timeline would have been a mix of Punic, Iberian, Celtiberian and possibly a touch of the Berber languages from Berber supporters and traders.
 
Well no, the language we would see form in this alternate timeline would have been a mix of Punic, Iberian, Celtiberian and possibly a touch of the Berber languages from Berber supporters and traders.

Yeah, but it would almost certainly still be a descendent of Punic the same way Romanian is a descendent of Latin. So another Canaanite language.
 
If Hasdrubal Barca successfully crushes Scipio "Africanus" like he had crushed Scipio´s father, what would happen to the overall result of Second Punic War?
 
If Hasdrubal Barca successfully crushes Scipio "Africanus" like he had crushed Scipio´s father, what would happen to the overall result of Second Punic War?

Not much actually, during the Second Punic War the Carthaginians were going through a power struggle of some kind. The Barca family wanted to crush Rome but the Carthaginian Senate never gave Hannibal the proper funds or support to siege Rome head on.

What I could see happening is that Hasdrubal joins his brother Hannibal in Italy after defeating Scipio. If his brother would be of any help though, I don't know. It's pretty clear he was a poor general on land who just mimicked his brother Hannibal. He was a great naval general though, unfortunately Rome isn't a port city.
 
Could block re supply via river and contribute troops to a siege though and starve Rome, dunno how feasible that is?

I don't think a siege of Rome in general is feasible for Carthage and I think Hannibal knew this. As much as he wanted to conquer Rome it would have taken a lot of things that Hannibal simply could not have gotten. Siege equipment for one.

Hannibal realistically was one of the greatest generals in history, he went above and beyond in a time and under a simply pathetic government that could not agree that Rome was their common enemy. That's why I say not much would change, because what Hannibal already did in our timeline was above and beyond the call of duty.
 
I don't think a siege of Rome in general is feasible for Carthage and I think Hannibal knew this. As much as he wanted to conquer Rome it would have taken a lot of things that Hannibal simply could not have gotten. Siege equipment for one.

Hannibal realistically was one of the greatest generals in history, he went above and beyond in a time and under a simply pathetic government that could not agree that Rome was their common enemy. That's why I say not much would change, because what Hannibal already did in our timeline was above and beyond the call of duty.

Then I return to my previous position that the Barca's should seize Iberia for themselves and secede :p
 
Top