Carthaginian Escape, Scipio's Fear, West African outposts...Mesoamerica, 146 B.C.

As we know the Carthaginians were rounded up following the destruction of Carthage and its surviving inhabitants sold into slavery across the scattered Republic. But undoubtedly, there were escapees. Likely, however, the significance of the fugitive Carthaginian refugees was light, nevertheless, with their knowledge not only of West Africa but also the trade winds, based on their Phoenician foundation, it is not impossible to imagine a carefree attitude to their own life and land by sailing as westward as possible.
The interesting thing is that Scipio Aemilianus, the conqueror of Carthage, should have known about this lore. His mentor, Polybius, was Greek. He likely knew his Aristotle legend, later described by Diodorus Siculus about a remote Carthaginian outpost. It thus raises a question: Why would Scipio commission Polybius to take a fleet and sail the West African coast immediately after the fall of Carthage, as he in fact did? Was it just to learn about the existing West African outposts (Mogador, etc.), or was it something more?
All of this has been posited in a fascinating but little known short film from a couple years ago:
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Why would they sail west? As far as they know there's nothing out there besides a slow death from thirst or starvation. With their sailing technology that's likely to happen anyway.
 
Why would they sail west? As far as they know there's nothing out there besides a slow death from thirst or starvation. With their sailing technology that's likely to happen anyway.
They likely didn't know about it, but that doesn't mean they couldn't theoretically make the voyage with said technology on hand... people have crossed the Atlantic in a canoe (not by choice either, i might add). What you need is someone to be storm swept west, make it to america, and then make it back to tell the tale. Unlikely to happen. Impossible, no? But improbable.
 
They likely didn't know about it, but that doesn't mean they couldn't theoretically make the voyage with said technology on hand... people have crossed the Atlantic in a canoe (not by choice either, i might add). What you need is someone to be storm swept west, make it to america, and then make it back to tell the tale. Unlikely to happen. Impossible, no? But improbable.
I've never heard of any confirmed reports of people crossing the Atlantic in canoes, at most mildly plausible theories of Greenlanders being swept to the British Isles in kayaks, hardly the kind of grand trans-oceanic voyage you're talking about. And a storm doesn't magically make it so that the ship will reach American shores in time before food runs out, and travel back to the Old World would be even more implausible than reaching the New. And even if the stars aligned and all this did happen, you still lack a motive for people to make the crossing since it's still almost certain death to starvation/thirst/weather, and they have no reason to settle on the other side of the ocean. The social and environmental conditions that caused the colonization of the Americas simply don't exist yet.
 
if the base was in the Azores? to conduct any kind of journey down the Atlantic African coast as in OTL they must have had some kind of ship beyond the version they used in the Med? so a single ship of refugees being blown across might work, a organised escape plan/fleet would require a large POD. If they did they would most likely persish in the jungle somewhere as their argricultural package would not work very well! if they encountered one of the Amazonian civilzations they might be ok (interesting as history know very little about them) then again in ASB land they could find themselves in a pre-classic Mayan city state? if they brought viable wheat, horses and other goodies it would def be ASB territory!
 
Nice idea. Carthaginians were great sailors, and having them keep the island network (West African ports, Canaries, Madeira, Azores) might be a nice idea. But I fear they`d revert to a less sophisticated lifestyle and the networks weakens somewhat, with a lot of isolated developments, in such a case. So not necessarily Punic-Maya encounters.
 
Nice idea. Carthaginians were great sailors, and having them keep the island network (West African ports, Canaries, Madeira, Azores) might be a nice idea. But I fear they`d revert to a less sophisticated lifestyle and the networks weakens somewhat, with a lot of isolated developments, in such a case. So not necessarily Punic-Maya encounters.

True true, if we ignore the Americas but assume it reasonable for the Carthaginians to colonise Madeira, the Savage islands, Canary Islands and Cape Verde Islands to safeguard and facilitate a west African trade route to bypass the Saharan caravans prior to the 1st or second Punic War you could conceivably go down the route of a proto Venetian style rump Carthaginian state or turning to or also encompassing some piracy, depending on the population size and how developed the colonies are.

Would be fun to see the Carthaginians fighting the Romans in a 4th Punic War in Madeira analogous to what happened with the two and fro in Sicily in the 1st and 2nd, maybe with some Briton inspired proto cogs giving them the advantage.

Also, if they assimilate the Guanche a whistled dialect of Punic would be endearing.
 
It is plausible that some Carthaginians escape to the Macaronesian Islands and form a colony of sorts. Very likely indeed,considering the proximity of Macaronesia to Carthage. And very likely that they set up colonies in West Africa and expand their influence southward and maybe eastward via the Sahel. They could intermarry with the Guanche and bring in slaves from North and West Africa,maybe even Mesopotamia,Levant and African Horn if they went the pirate route. At the least,they can bring a maritime tradition to the Guanche,who then can colonize the rest of the islands outside of the Canary Islands. Now,on reaching the Americas,Carthaginian ships definitely have the capacity to do so and should be able to reach the outermost islands of the Caribbean at least and from there to the Yucatan and Mesoamerica, where they should be able to set up a trade alliance with Mayans and/or Arawak. And considering their maritime tradition,it's highly likely that the Carthaginians knew something was out there. It's doubtful that they regain their former glory,but maybe they retain their traditions and culture independent of Rome and gain a small presence in Mesoamerica.
 
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Barring maybe controlling a port in Cornwall to administer the flow of Tin - why?

I make the above question because within the options wasn't the British Islands (well known for Carthage traders) that if a colony there, would were founded, could have a very great commercial potential.

Specific way I guess that they would divert in their favor and / or control the Amber trade routes.
 
I make the above question because within the options wasn't the British Islands (well known for Carthage traders) that if a colony there, would were founded, could have a very great commercial potential.

This could work, but only until about the turn of the millennium, when Rome starts to look at Britain as a potential colony...

Regards,
John Braungart
 
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