Carthaginian contact with the Americas?

Hnau

Banned
Sometime after the establishment of the Carthaginian Republic in 575 BCE, but before any major wars with its neighbors, a Carthaginian explorer sailing the coastline of Morocco discovers to the Canary Islands, where he finds a few people... the Guanches have only had a few hundred years to populate it. He sets sail westwards, believing that there are more islands to be found, only to be driven ever further by a storm. The ship, a good long-range Phoenician one, finds itself in the Caribbean. The crew enters the forests of Hispaniola to find food and water sufficient for their needs. They are then able to luckily make a return voyage in order to tell the tale.

It's basically the premise for the world Ezcalli from GURPS Alternate Earths, but what is plausible, if this implausible POD is hand-waved away? Do the Americas become a legend, with which to inspire further explorers, much farther down the timeline? Or do the Carthaginians send more expeditions, soon after?
 
I would not be surprised to see the Carthaginians send more expeditions, they were quite good sailors and of course traders.
 
There is some very sketchy evidence that this actually happened in the form of a handful of coins that COULD be Carthaginian turning up in the new world, and NOT originating from the old world invaders.
 
More explorers don't make much sense. The main reason for going to the Americas was historically new lands and new goods.

However there were already all of those things basically right next door. The Iberian Peninsula had plenty of land for settlement, and had some of the best horses in the medditteranean region. The usefulness of Iberian horses was much greater for the Carthigeneans than the possible benefits of Hispaniola.

The story might be passed on to other generations.
 

Philip

Donor
The crew enters the forests of Hispaniola to find food and water sufficient for their needs. They are then able to luckily make a return voyage in order to tell the tale.

Some questions:
1. Do they have the navigation skills to get back to Carthage? The Carthaginians had an extensive naval tradition, but did their knowledge equip them for trans-oceanic voyages?
2. Is there any motivation for other Carthaginians to go back to the New World? I suppose you can suggest the generic 'adventure' motivation, but I'm not sure there is much economic or political motivation for them to return.
 

Hnau

Banned
Do they have the navigation skills to get back to Carthage? The Carthaginians had an extensive naval tradition, but did their knowledge equip them for trans-oceanic voyages?

I believe they do. Sail to the Canary Islands... or even the Azores, and then to the Gibraltar Strait.

Why would they keep contact? For the Spanish, it was all about land, slaves, gold and God. The Carthaginians don't want to proselyte, they can get slaves from a number of closer locations, and they have all of Iberia to expand into territorially. They aren't an overpopulated country. But gold and other precious materials, they'd go back for that, if they could find evidence of it. Who would have precious minerals at this time, though, in the New World?
 
Gold still might be hard to get in the Americas, but a very famous gold center would be Ghana and the Gold Coast. That doesn't involve trans-atlantic Travel. Getting there is not a problem there is a strong current pulling towards that area, however getting back to Carthage would be basically impossible. The current was too strong.
 
It's basically the premise for the world Ezcalli from GURPS Alternate Earths...


Hnau,

Yes, but the AE authors even write in their own description of Ezcalli that the timeline is so improbable that both Homeline and Centrum believe it is a result of out-time interference; i.e. ASB.

Do the Americas become a legend, with which to inspire further explorers, much farther down the timeline?

I'd say yes. There are plenty of of "Atlantic islands" myths in the OTL, I've a book about them floating around somewhere. Basically, if a culture sailed the coastal Atlantic or Med they had stories about various islands further out into the Atlantic.

As you note, those legends could very well spark or lure further explorations down the timeline.

Or do the Carthaginians send more expeditions, soon after?

I'd say no. As you and other note, Carthage has access to similar resources much closer to home. There's a technology question here too. Being driven across the Atlantic by storm and being able to make your way home against tremendous odds isn't exactly the same as planning to cross the Atlantic and planning to return home.

Carthaginian vessels may be up to the task, but Carthaginians wouldn't necessarily know that.

I quite like the suggestions regarding the Canaries, Azores, and Ghana coast though.


Bill
 
The ship, a good long-range Phoenician one, finds itself in the Caribbean. The crew enters the forests of Hispaniola to find food and water sufficient for their needs. They are then able to luckily make a return voyage in order to tell the tale.
Northern Brazil/Guiana would be a more plausible destination, although they could sail up into the Caribbean from there (and it would be an even longer voyage home)

It would not be worth it for them to come back often, but it could be interesting if they bring back some peanuts, corn or sunflowers. Or even more interesting if they show the Indians how to make metal tools.

I could see them settling south africa. was it them or the egyptians that sailed around the whole of africa?

Phoenicians, actually, under Egyptian sponsorship.
 
I rather like the idea of Carthaginians adding the atlatl to their arsenal. In the final defence of their city. Carthaginian women were said to have cut off their hair to make bow strings. Human hair being such unsuitable material, they must have been incredibly desperate. The atlatl would make a good weapon for the masses.

If the Americas become known to Carthage, they could have the incentive to start colonies there after losing all their other territories to Rome in the Second Punic War.
 
Wilbur Smith wrote a novel based on a southern African neo Carthage back in the 1970s iirc. I think the novel was called The Sunbird. I have read it, but that was several decades ago, so my memory has faded.

Plus a lot of his works tend to blend together, outside of the historical framework. There is only so much discussion of "tawny, honey flecked eyes" that one can take before brains flow out of ears, imo
 
Wilbur Smith wrote a novel based on a southern African neo Carthage back in the 1970s iirc. I think the novel was called The Sunbird. I have read it, but that was several decades ago, so my memory has faded.


Julius,

If your memory of it has faded, you are truly blessed.

Plus a lot of his works tend to blend together, outside of the historical framework. There is only so much discussion of "tawny, honey flecked eyes" that one can take before brains flow out of ears, imo

Smith was out "Turtledoving" Turtledove well before that hack was out of secondary school.

I have more memories of the book, sadly, due to it's shear awfulness more than anything else. Although I read it in my early teens, even I was disturbed by the racist overtones in the novel. Smith "explains" the many Gokomere culture ruins on Zimbabwe as being the remains of a colonial Carthgo/Punic/Phoenician society. That society was, "naturally", destroyed in a slave revolt and the slaves, "naturally", lapse into barbarism afterward.

Imagine a Cartland novel with healthy dollops of racist twaddle and you've got a good handle on The Sunbird.


Bill
 
Julius,

If your memory of it has faded, you are truly blessed.



Smith was out "Turtledoving" Turtledove well before that hack was out of secondary school.

I have more memories of the book, sadly, due to it's shear awfulness more than anything else. Although I read it in my early teens, even I was disturbed by the racist overtones in the novel. Smith "explains" the many Gokomere culture ruins on Zimbabwe as being the remains of a colonial Carthgo/Punic/Phoenician society. That society was, "naturally", destroyed in a slave revolt and the slaves, "naturally", lapse into barbarism afterward.

Imagine a Cartland novel with healthy dollops of racist twaddle and you've got a good handle on The Sunbird.


Bill

A close shave then. Perhaps I should start a new thread "A Tale of Tears" - WI: Julius could still remember in detail The Sunbird?
 
I rather like the idea of Carthaginians adding the atlatl to their arsenal. In the final defence of their city. Carthaginian women were said to have cut off their hair to make bow strings. Human hair being such unsuitable material, they must have been incredibly desperate.

Catapult torsion ropes, actually, if I recall correctly.

The atlatl would make a good weapon for the masses.

They are pretty difficult to use with any accuracy. Also, the basic principle is used in the amentum of ancient European javelins, so the performance gain would probably be small.

If the Americas become known to Carthage, they could have the incentive to start colonies there after losing all their other territories to Rome in the Second Punic War.

The problem is that the Atlantic is huge. Bad analogy, but the Carthaginians could reach America much the same way we can reach the moon - doable, but expensive and hardly worth the trouble.
 
At its time, there was plenty of land in the North African and Iberian hinterlands, so even if a ships crew were to cross the Atlantic, it would have taken months at sea, while places like Spain, Sardinia, Corsica, Sicily, and elsewhere in the Mediterranean would take several weeks by ship, at the most. Also, the basic Phoenician population of Carthage was small in proportion to the indigenous peoples of the western Mediterranean, so they weren't ready to act as the imperial expansionists of Rome or the Hellenistic empires in the east. Even if Hannibal was able to obliterate Rome in the Second Punic War, some other developments could take place in the next two hundred years.

Another city-state federation in Italy, like a revived Samnite league, could rise up and take Rome's place.

The Gauls could unite by the late First Century BCE.

Syracuse could assert itself in Sicily.

If Carthage or some kind of successive Phoenician culture could survive Rome and anything else in the next thousand years, it would still take at least that long before they reach America. And as interesting as the idea is for Maya or Toltec-sque style temples are to Baal, Melquert, and Tanit are, year-round trips across the Atlantic in oar-propelled galleys and triremes won't be worth the risk.
 
They are pretty difficult to use with any accuracy. Also, the basic principle is used in the amentum of ancient European javelins, so the performance gain would probably be small.

The problem is that the Atlantic is huge. Bad analogy, but the Carthaginians could reach America much the same way we can reach the moon - doable, but expensive and hardly worth the trouble.
The atlatl is not just a thrower of javelins. It actually throws a large fletchered arrow. The flexibility of the shaft combined with the leverage greatly extends the throwing range. It's also an order of magnitude easier to learn than the bow and arrow. A weapon that can be mastered by men and women in a reasonable amount of time.
 
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