Carthaginian city names in Carthage-wins scenarios?

In a scenario where Carthage wins out against Rome, what would be some Carthaginian city names? Either renames of existing cities (what did they call Rome?), or new names.
Do we know enough about Punic to determine such things?

(No, I'm (probably) not making a TL about this, this is just a sort of thread that people making Carthage-wins scenarios can use... I guess, if anyone even knows enough about Punic to assist)
 
Generally, the Phoenician language was quite similar to Hebrew (probably even mutually intelligible), even though late Punic made some modifications and innovations (Leo Caesius can tell you more about this, I am pretty sure).
 
AFAIK, Hebrew was little more than a dialect of "Phoenician" at first. Better said, they were both dialects of the "Canaanaic" language, and mutually intelligible ones, probably.
I don't know when Punic started to diverge heavily from old Phoenician, but surely it was quite far removed from it in Roman times (and yes, Punic stayed as a vital language up to immediately before the Vandal invasion at least. There's evidence from St. Augustine that it was still spoken and even regarded.)
 
AFAIK, Hebrew was little more than a dialect of "Phoenician" at first. Better said, they were both dialects of the "Canaanaic" language, and mutually intelligible ones, probably.

Well, the Greek term "Phoenicia" is an exonym for Canaan, and the Latin term "Punic" is in term derived from the former.

I don't know when Punic started to diverge heavily from old Phoenician, but surely it was quite far removed from it in Roman times (and yes, Punic stayed as a vital language up to immediately before the Vandal invasion at least. There's evidence from St. Augustine that it was still spoken and even regarded.)

My guess would be after the demise of Phoenicia proper.
 
Carthage was rather boring with names, naming everything the same thing - there'd probably be a lot of other Carthages, cities that tie with Punic gods (going off of Punic people names), and maybe some stuff with Tyre - as in mentioning Tyre in the name of the city rather than implying it like Carthage Carthage does. Or something named after (assuming a Hannibal victory scenario) Hannibal. That's assuming Carthage is colonizing say Africa. They'd probably stick with Punic-ized names of the cities they conquered if we're talking about spots like Rome and Syracuse.

A_cool_link_I_just_found - just found this off of google; I'm suprised I haven't seen it before. Given the lack of Punic stuff on the internet, you all might have seen this before, but if not, its interesting me. :cool:
 
What actual Carthaginian cities do we know the name of in the first place?
Carthage is Qart-hadašt, Utica is Atiq, Tunis is Tanit or Tanut, Carthago Nova (presumably) is Qart-hadašt-hadašt, and Tangier is Tingis... any others?
 
Really not that difficult to make out bits and pieces of that video. We should ask Leo Caesius is the pronounciation is too convergent to modern related languages.
 
I'd like to say a lot of city names in the Roman Empire were merely Romanized....so at the least we won't have to find many new Carthaginian city names IMO. Just Carthaginian transliteration policies. :p
 

archaeogeek

Banned
What actual Carthaginian cities do we know the name of in the first place?
Carthage is Qart-hadašt, Utica is Atiq, Tunis is Tanit or Tanut, Carthago Nova (presumably) is Qart-hadašt-hadašt, and Tangier is Tingis... any others?

IIRC Carthago Nova was just Carthage so Qart-hadast as well. I suspect we'd end up seeing at least one for every province :p
 
What actual Carthaginian cities do we know the name of in the first place?
Carthage is Qart-hadašt, Utica is Atiq, Tunis is Tanit or Tanut, Carthago Nova (presumably) is Qart-hadašt-hadašt, and Tangier is Tingis... any others?

Agadir ('gdr) for Cadiz, Mliet (ml't) for Malta, Mutuw (mtw) for Motya (Mozzia).

Potentially Olisipo for Lisbon (gh-l-s) thought that's hard to ascertain. Anything with Rus means "head", "promonotory", like modern "Ra'as" - Ruscurru, Rusaddir, etc.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
I actually started a thread on surviving Punic but never managed to finish it.

There are a couple of ordered sound changes that distinguish Phoenician (and Punic) from Hebrew. For example, all diphthongs collapse to long e and o (so no bayit "house," just bet). The outcome of the "Canaanite Shift" (in which long a becomes o, eg. Salaam vs. Shalom) eventually becomes u in Punic (so the Punic equivalent of Shalom and Salaam would probably be something like Salum). Short a also becomes o in Phoenician, but only in accented syllables (this is known as the "Phoenician Shift"). All short vowels in open syllables before the word stress become semi-vowels (or are outright deleted); short i becomes e. There are also a couple of other changes (sibilants merge, and the so-called gutturals eventually drop out in Neo-Punic) but that's probably enough for you to know how to convert Hebrew names to Phoenician ones.
 
I actually started a thread on surviving Punic but never managed to finish it.

Looked entirely too scholarly for this site :D

There are a couple of ordered sound changes that distinguish Phoenician (and Punic) from Hebrew. For example, all diphthongs collapse to long e and o (so no bayit "house," just bet). The outcome of the "Canaanite Shift" (in which long a becomes o, eg. Salaam vs. Shalom) eventually becomes u in Punic (so the Punic equivalent of Shalom and Salaam would probably be something like Salum). Short a also becomes o in Phoenician, but only in accented syllables (this is known as the "Phoenician Shift"). All short vowels in open syllables before the word stress become semi-vowels (or are outright deleted); short i becomes e. There are also a couple of other changes (sibilants merge, and the so-called gutturals eventually drop out in Neo-Punic) but that's probably enough for you to know how to convert Hebrew names to Phoenician ones.

An excellent guide! But the highlighted part -

No Gh-?

I can't even picture Semitic without it! Damn Neo-Punic.
 
Top