Carthage's refugees?

Hi everyone, this is my first post here. :p

Browsing the internet i found some theories about carthaginians fleeing to South America after the third punic war. This is probably ASB, but what if they made it to West Africa? They could have enstablished some colonies like Carthage itself were.

A survival of these Sub Saharian colonies could have an impact on the later european age of discoveries, because carthaginians settlers could have brought with them their technology and institutional advancements.

This could lead to fairly advanced kingdoms right at the dawn of middle ages, and maybe contacts through the Sahara or Moroccan coasts.

Could these African kingdoms have resisted the colonial penetration of europeans, first by the portuguese and then by everyone in the XIX?

Or even better: could they somehow make it to the Iberian peninsula, and expanding there? I think that the best moment is right before the islamic invasion of Iberia, because the Visigothic kingdom was inherently oppressive with minorities and unstable.

In the end, could a black-dominated european country change the later development of racism, due to the intermarrying of royals from the now black-dominated Iberia?

Is this scenario plausible?
 
Welcome to the forum! I think we talked about this a little bit awhile back, and it's a very interesting concept actually. The colonies would likely have to be founded before Carthage's fall-so presumably something that has Carthage focus more on west african trade after the first punic war would be a nice POD. So when the fall of Carthage does come (I assume the butterflies from Carthage's policies would make it come at a different point than OTL), the refugees have a stable colony to flee to.

As for the Portuguese, muslims, visigoths, etc...they're all butterflied away for the most part. This has longterm butterflies on Rome-since Rome would take at least a small interest in the refugees of their enemy in west africa (and in the trade opportunities perhaps), which effects most of subsequent european history.
 
Welcome to the forum! I think we talked about this a little bit awhile back, and it's a very interesting concept actually. The colonies would likely have to be founded before Carthage's fall-so presumably something that has Carthage focus more on west african trade after the first punic war would be a nice POD. So when the fall of Carthage does come (I assume the butterflies from Carthage's policies would make it come at a different point than OTL), the refugees have a stable colony to flee to.

As for the Portuguese, muslims, visigoths, etc...they're all butterflied away for the most part. This has longterm butterflies on Rome-since Rome would take at least a small interest in the refugees of their enemy in west africa (and in the trade opportunities perhaps), which effects most of subsequent european history.

Carthage in the Canaries, I recall. It's not likely that the Romans would know about the colony, so it could probably survive. As for where the Romans think the refugees are going: their barbaric homelands beyond the end of the earth.

The Roman republic and empire exist pretty much as it did OTL. I don't see the Punics becoming black, nor do I see black Punics moving to Iberia. The Punic culture greatly increases how well West Africa is off economically in the long run, and they end up either converting to Islam, or be destroyed. With the Punic trading links, Islam might spread to the rest of Africa.
 
Carthage in the Canaries, I recall. It's not likely that the Romans would know about the colony, so it could probably survive. As for where the Romans think the refugees are going: their barbaric homelands beyond the end of the earth.

The Roman republic and empire exist pretty much as it did OTL. I don't see the Punics becoming black, nor do I see black Punics moving to Iberia. The Punic culture greatly increases how well West Africa is off economically in the long run, and they end up either converting to Islam, or be destroyed. With the Punic trading links, Islam might spread to the rest of Africa.

Islam would be butterflied by this far back a PoD.
 
I don't think it would be implausible for say a Pre-Fall colony (really a small trade post/fort) on the other end of the Trans-Saharan trade line started by a Carthaginian trader. It would just be a matter of them surviving once obviously cut off from Carthage. That means the basis of any such colony would have to be self-suffice to economically and militarily.
 
Welcome to the forum! I think we talked about this a little bit awhile back, and it's a very interesting concept actually. The colonies would likely have to be founded before Carthage's fall-so presumably something that has Carthage focus more on west african trade after the first punic war would be a nice POD. So when the fall of Carthage does come (I assume the butterflies from Carthage's policies would make it come at a different point than OTL), the refugees have a stable colony to flee to.

As for the Portuguese, muslims, visigoths, etc...they're all butterflied away for the most part. This has longterm butterflies on Rome-since Rome would take at least a small interest in the refugees of their enemy in west africa (and in the trade opportunities perhaps), which effects most of subsequent european history.

Thanks for the reply.

I think that you're right about the timing of the colony (after the first punic war), because it would give something like 60 years for it to develop.

About the Romans, I assumed that they won't know about these colonies, and if they eventually heard of them, i think they would be rather busy with the second punic war, and not chase the punics up the the end of earth :p

If i recall correctly, the Romans were pretty busy in the East right after the Second Punic war, so we can assume that the Atlantic coast around Morocco could still be in Punic hands.

Maybe the African colonies declare independence from a weakened Carthage and "disappear" until the Romans forget about them? For this to happen they shouldn't sail in the Mediterranean for a while, maybe they found some empories all along Africa and reach Arabia/Persia after some centuries? I mean, Africa at the time were full of luxuries, so they have an incentive to go there.
 
It would make for an interesting timeline if refugees from Carthage colonized Macaronesia {Canary Islands,Azores,Madeira Islands,Cape Verde}and intermarried with the Guanche. Still won't be strong enough to take on Rome, but maybe they could make contact with the Caribbean through Macaronesia. As for the West African mainland; there was the Nok culture,Serer people and other West African civilizations of the time that they could trade with and form alliances.
 
Mauretania and Numidia (Algeria and Morocco) were never actually Carthaginian. They were ruled by client kings, and after the second punic war Rome made sure those kings were independent. Carthage or their colonies aren't going to control any of that after losing to Rome. The reason I assume Rome would know of the colonies, is because unless this colony is remarkably self sufficient, it has to have trade relations with Rome after Carthage's fall. So Rome would inevitably know about it and probably wouldn't mind trading with the colony.
 
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