Carthage, not Rome

[HistIdiot]

Playing Rome: Total Realism as Carthage and throughly whooping the Romans made me think: what if Carthage had won the Punic Wars and gone on to be the dominant power in the Mediterranean?

I have a few ideas, and would like to hear some from other people too.

1. This one is obvious. The Carthaginian language (Punic, I guess), would probably be the basis for many of the languages of Europe.
2. There's a good chance that the actual physical city of Carthage would have survived to the present day.
3. I would assume that an empire with its center in North Africa would have been better able to resist the Arab invasions, so therefore no Muslim conquest of North Africa or Spain.

How would Carthage have reacted to some of the things the Romans had to deal with, including the rise of Christianity and the barbarian migrations? To what extent do you think the Carthaginian Empire would have geographically mirrored the Roman one?
So, what do you think?

 

[wkwillis]

Carthage was a trading empire, not a land based empire. They didn't want territory so much as ports and hinterlands.

 

[Chingo360]

Well, obviouslt the latin languages would never develop, i think in the end the invading Barbarians would have destroyed carthage anyway

 

[Nicole]

Well, I would think a Carthaginian Empire would not be able to wipe the Latins off the map.

It would certainly be trade-based, and might not be strong enough to conquer the Hellenistic states in Greece or Egypt...

 

[Anaxagoras]

3. I would assume that an empire with its center in North Africa would have been better able to resist the Arab invasions, so therefore no Muslim conquest of North Africa or Spain.

How would Carthage have reacted to some of the things the Romans had to deal with, including the rise of Christianity and the barbarian migrations?

I think a Roman defeat in the Punic Wars would have resulted in both Christianity and Islam being butterflied away over the next few centuries. Neither Jesus nor Mohammed would ever have been born.

 

[Nicole]

I think a Roman defeat in the Punic Wars would have resulted in both Christianity and Islam being butterflied away over the next few centuries. Neither Jesus nor Mohammed would ever have been born.

Here we get in religious territory, though, as surely God wouldn't allow his Son to be butterflied away... so it's really up to the beliefs of the author weather Christianity or Islam shows up, I'd say.

 

[chunkeymonkey13q]

Do you have a map to show your conquests? Use this one if not (sorry, but I already messed with it a bit).

 

[Max Sinister]

I don't know which barbarians could take Carthage... in the South, there aren't any, the seaside should be guarded very well by Carthage's ships, and whoever comes from the North has to bite his way through everything between him and carthage.

Jesus and Mohammed would be butterflied away, but there might still be their equivalents.

 

[Chingo360]

The vandals would have come from the west after sweeping through spain anyway, if not then they would surely have taken Gaul and attacked

 

[Nicole]

The vandals would have come from the west after sweeping through spain anyway, if not then they would surely have taken Gaul and attacked

Hm, would they have swept through Carthaginian Spain?

One problem that Carthage had was that it was a Punic city, but the region around it was mostly Berber or Mauri. After Carthage was destroyed, the populace was spread around and generally wiped out, and no new carthage would arise because the small number of Punics who had formed the state were gone. Would a long-lasting Carthaginian Empire result in Punic culture spreading to a larger area?

 

[chunkeymonkey13q]

The Vandals may not have advanced into Africa, in our timeline they only did this due to a request by one of the Romans. They then found they liked the area and took it for their own. It is much more likely that they would remain in Gaul or Iberia and then be gradually assimilated by the locals or another tribe.

 

[DominusNovus]

I don't know which barbarians could take Carthage... in the South, there aren't any

except the Berbers.

 

[chunkeymonkey13q]

They probably wouldn't be too much of a threat to a powerful Carthaginian Empire though.

 

[robertp6165]

Playing Rome: Total Realism as Carthage and throughly whooping the Romans made me think: what if Carthage had won the Punic Wars and gone on to be the dominant power in the Mediterranean?

I have a few ideas, and would like to hear some from other people too.

1. This one is obvious. The Carthaginian language (Punic, I guess), would probably be the basis for many of the languages of Europe.

Unlikely. The Carthaginians, as other posters have mentioned, were a trading empire. Carthage only conquered Spain, for example, because they needed a base from which to launch a land-based invasion of Rome, as well as a source of tough soldiers for the army. If Rome is defeated, there is little reason for them to expand a great deal into other areas. And even in the areas they did conquer, they formed only a small elite among the native population, and their language never penetrated down to the general population. The Punic language never really influenced the languages of the North African people they ruled, for example, and Carthage ruled them for hundreds of years. There is no reason to expect anything different in this scenario.

2. There's a good chance that the actual physical city of Carthage would have survived to the present day.

That's quite possible, perhaps even probable.

3. I would assume that an empire with its center in North Africa would have been better able to resist the Arab invasions, so therefore no Muslim conquest of North Africa or Spain.

That would depend on a lot of things. The only reason the Byzantines and Persians had such a hard time with the Arabs, for example, was that they had just fought a major war against each other and were mutually exhausted. Byzantium also had some loyalty problems among its population in Palestine and Egypt because of various religious schisms. Carthage could very well find itself in a similar situation. The fact that the center of the empire was in North Africa would make very little difference.

 

[Earling]

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on this trading empire business. Rome didn't look up in 300 BC and imagine she would destroy first her Italian neighbors, then Carthage and finally every Mediterranean power to be found.

You start with an initial trading settlement, then you end up with too much invested there to be held at ransom by any passing tribe of barbarians who fancy some easy plunder. So you move into the interior. Once into the interior, you keep taking land to safeguard that land you just took and so on.

As for conquering Spain solely as a base for attacking Rome.. i am not convinced. I am sure I read somewhere that there were substantial gold and silver in Spain and it was this lucrative exercise which provided the motive for conquest.

Ofcourse its quite possible Carthage wouldn't expand, but theres reason enough to assume it might. One can argue that the same political factors that brought about Roman expansion could effect a victorious Carthage, although how effective they would be is debatable.

 

[Chingo360]

maybe Carthage gets invaded by other nations (or barbarians) from the east, it will likely have to fall cause it will return into an AH-Rome meaning it has to keep expanding to keep its economy stable and that just doesnt work

 

[Adamanteus]

Playing Rome: Total Realism as Carthage and throughly whooping the Romans made me think: what if Carthage had won the Punic Wars and gone on to be the dominant power in the Mediterranean?

The only reason Carthage even attempted any imperialistic ambitions was due to the Barca family, and the Carthaginian political machine was very unsupportive of this move. The mercantile parties of Carthage preferred to keep their financial interests secure, and only understood military force as a means to this end, so that if it was too expensive to wage war, they preferred to settle. They did not understand Roman resolve to press the war to the bitter end, and so got more than they bargained for, so to speak.

The best way around this, I think, is to have Hannibal Barca launch a coup against the Carthaginian Republic. Once established as an autocrat, he would plan his invasion of Italy, this time with plenty of reinforcement. Rome would fall, and Carthaginian history would from this time mirror that of Roman in OTL.

 

[Chingo360]

Well after all of the Barcas die out, Carthage would just go back to its "normal" trading days

 

[chunkeymonkey13q]

Not neccessarily, it is quite possible that it could become an actual empire, which I think might have been what the original question was about (maybe I'm wrong on that). Also, who knows how long it could last? As one government, it probably wouldn't keep going forever, but perhaps it would be like China with several dynasties gradually rising and falling over time.

 

[Historico]

The only reason Carthage even attempted any imperialistic ambitions was due to the Barca family, and the Carthaginian political machine was very unsupportive of this move. The mercantile parties of Carthage preferred to keep their financial interests secure, and only understood military force as a means to this end, so that if it was too expensive to wage war, they preferred to settle. They did not understand Roman resolve to press the war to the bitter end, and so got more than they bargained for, so to speak.

The best way around this, I think, is to have Hannibal Barca launch a coup against the Carthaginian Republic. Once established as an autocrat, he would plan his invasion of Italy, this time with plenty of reinforcement. Rome would fall, and Carthaginian history would from this time mirror that of Roman in OTL.

But Maybe, with the Invasion from the Celts and the Germanic Tribes begin precessing into Spain, the Carthaginian Republic might be pressed into conquer the terriroies. Also, Would A surviving Carthaginian Republic find any interests in the British Isles for anything other than Trade?