Carthage and the Punic Wars

Is it possible at all that Carthage could have beaten Rome in ANY of three Punic wars and conquered Rome, even becoming the successor state and ruling all of North Africa and Europe like Rome? If this works, what would be the reasons they would collapse?
 
Carthage could defeat Rome, but it would never conquer the empire Rome had. It'd be difficult for Carthage to win the first war, and it'd be impossible for them to win the third, but the second is littered with oppurtunities. (shameless advertisement: see timleline in sig!)

Rome had a lot of advantages throughout the wars, but it is by no means impossible for Carthage to have won either of the first two. Carthage lacked the mentality to conquer Europe like Rome did - they were a trade empire, not a nation built on the military, and they had a much more limited citizen base. It would take a massive change of culture for Carthage to become 'Rome' enough to do something of that sort.
 
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I thought that Carthage was fierce about losing it's colonies in Iberia, though. What if they colonized almost all of it, built up cities and armies there, then attacked Rome?

And I read somewhere (source forgotten) that Carthage, at one point, had almost a big enough army to conquer Rome, had they wanted or needed to.
 
I thought that Carthage was fierce about losing it's colonies in Iberia, though. What if they colonized almost all of it, built up cities and armies there, then attacked Rome?
Well yeah, they lost their colonies after the Second Punic War... but they really couldn't do anything about it.

They colonized most of what they could from Iberia before the Second War. Rome and Carthage specifically agreed that Carthage wouldn't expand past the Ebro in Iberia, because Rome was afraid of what you just said. When Hannibal passed the Ebro and besieged Saguntum the Second Punic War started... so unless your PoD came earlier, Carthage probably couldn't completely colonize Iberia unless they defeated Rome beforehand.

And I read somewhere (source forgotten) that Carthage, at one point, had almost a big enough army to conquer Rome, had they wanted or needed to.
At which point? Hannibal's army was the biggest Carthage had, but to actually destroy Rome was still out of reach. Any Siege of Rome would've been a complete failure. But Carthage still could've won a negotiated peace.

I'm not really entirely sure on your question... do you want to know if Carthage could win any of the Punic Wars, do you want to know how Carthage would fare with an empire the size of Rome's... what exactly do you want to know?
 
Not exactly win a punic war, but I guess rather if Carthage could conquer the Romans at any given point in history.

Do you think that through diplomacy that Carthage could get some allies to help him? Not to sure, but what was Greece's / Persia's status at the time? Could they have helped the Carthaginians?
 
Not exactly win a punic war, but I guess rather if Carthage could conquer the Romans at any given point in history.

Do you think that through diplomacy that Carthage could get some allies to help him? Not to sure, but what was Greece's / Persia's status at the time? Could they have helped the Carthaginians?
Well, they could defeat the Romans in one of the Punic Wars, force them to accept a peace that nearly crushes them, and then destroy them a few years later. (Basically, they could do the reverse of what Rome did to Carthage after the Second War)

Hannibal during the Second Punic War did ally with Philip V of Macedonia... the trick isn't getting allies for Carthage, but in getting them to actually contribute something. Philip gave up after Rome sent a small force to Macedonia, so you'd have to get Philip to really actually care about destroying Rome. The Seleucids wouldn't have helped Carthage - they're too far away.
 
It was? Sorry I'm not that familiar with Ptolmaic Egypt.

Alright: here is another scenario. Do you think that Carthage and Rome could remain together in peace until some third party wipes one of them out? Or do you think it was destined for Carthage to become a province.
 
It was? Sorry I'm not that familiar with Ptolmaic Egypt.

Alright: here is another scenario. Do you think that Carthage and Rome could remain together in peace until some third party wipes one of them out? Or do you think it was destined for Carthage to become a province.
I'm not sure on that - I thought I remembered reading that somewhere, but I might be thinking of later Ptolemaic Egypt.

It'd be tricky. Carthage and Rome were clearly the powers of the Western Mediterranean, and Rome is very much an expansionist and militaristic power, and Carthage is trying to expand her markets... I suppose you could destroy either one before they were in power (say during the Pyrrhic War)... or you could insert a third power, like a more powerful Syracuse or a united Gaul to keep them distracted from each other, but with only them and a bunch of 'barbarians' it'd be, as I said, tricky.
 
Rome and Carthage specifically agreed that Carthage wouldn't expand past the Ebro in Iberia, because Rome was afraid of what you just said. When Hannibal passed the Ebro and besieged Saguntum the Second Punic War started...

He did NOT pass the Ebro. That was the point Hannibal and Carthage made. Saguntum was on the side of Ebro where Carthage was not by treaty forbidden to expand. The Carthago Senate repeatedly read out the treaties with Rome and they did not list Saguntum as an ally of Rome that Carthage could not attack.

Where in Second Punic War could Hannibal win?
 
Where in Second Punic War could Hannibal win?
Answer, no where. If he can destroy Roman's field and they can not only create a new one but also put an expeditionary force into Africa then he is going to lose. The fact is that most wars are not equally balanced. Most of them are won by the side that was unlikely to lose even if it was a cold day in Hell.
 
Answer, no where. If he can destroy Roman's field and they can not only create a new one but also put an expeditionary force into Africa then he is going to lose. The fact is that most wars are not equally balanced.

The expeditionary force into Africa could only be sent in 204 BC. For 12 years after Cannae, Rome did send out expeditionary forces, to Spain and Sicily.

There would have been chances as late as 207.
 
Is it possible at all that Carthage could have beaten Rome in ANY of three Punic wars and conquered Rome, even becoming the successor state and ruling all of North Africa and Europe like Rome? If this works, what would be the reasons they would collapse?

I personally think it's actually conceivable for Carthage to be victorious (at least 1st/2nd Punic Wars), but it's very unlikely (if not ASB) that they would establish an empire analogous to the Roman Empire. Carthage was a merchant empire above anything else, and they were no empire builders in the sense that the Romans were.

At best, a Carthaginian "empire" would encompass North Africa (well, the area of OTL Maghreb), most of Iberia, the Balearic Isles, Corsica, Sardinia, Sicily and maybe southern Italy, but that would be it.

It's very hard to conceive anybody who could actually fill the "gap" that would exist without Rome.
 
It was? Sorry I'm not that familiar with Ptolmaic Egypt.

Alright: here is another scenario. Do you think that Carthage and Rome could remain together in peace until some third party wipes one of them out?

I made a timeline recently that a Gaulish horde invades Rome after the second Punic war.
 
He did NOT pass the Ebro. That was the point Hannibal and Carthage made. Saguntum was on the side of Ebro where Carthage was not by treaty forbidden to expand. The Carthago Senate repeatedly read out the treaties with Rome and they did not list Saguntum as an ally of Rome that Carthage could not attack.

Where in Second Punic War could Hannibal win?
Ah, my bad there. :eek: I guess I had a slight misconception on that specific part... but still, the point was that Carthage wouldn't have been able to expand to encompass all of Iberia without provoking a war with Rome.

Plenty of oppurtunities in the Second War for Carthage to win, as stated earlier. Most famous is a march after Cannae to get Rome to surrender... another is a better Metaurus.
 
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