carlos II of Spain born healthy

Assume by some miracle if you will that Carlos II of Spain is born healthy with his only impediment veiny the Habsburg jaw, what does this change for Spain, Europe and the world?
 
Assume by some miracle if you will that Carlos II of Spain is born healthy with his only impediment veiny the Habsburg jaw, what does this change for Spain, Europe and the world?

First of all, avoid the marriage between the Spanish and Austrian Habsburgs. Whatever male comes from Philips IV, he can call it Carlos. Healthy af comparing it with our Carlos II. It may avoid the Spanish war of succession.
 
First of all, avoid the marriage between the Spanish and Austrian Habsburgs. Whatever male comes from Philips IV, he can call it Carlos. Healthy af comparing it with our Carlos II. It may avoid the Spanish war of succession.
Alright, so perhaps this Carlos could marry an Orleans girl?
 
Assume by some miracle if you will that Carlos II of Spain is born healthy with his only impediment veiny the Habsburg jaw, what does this change for Spain, Europe and the world?

Until 1677, the regency is in place, so few things would change. Nor could Charles II change the long-term issues of Spain : economical (bankruptcy of 1680), military (defeats against the French) etc. If Charles has kids born in the 1680s, his dynasty would be secure, but not his position. This is pretty much the highpoint of France's power. If Louis XIV had no driver to appease the Spaniards (as he would not inherit any part of the Spanish empire), he could very well keep as much of the Netherlands as he could. The cost of the Ryswick peace could be far more important for Spain. The main advantage is the extent of reconstruction allowed by Charles being sane after 1696 : could he name a competent valido ?
 
Alright you don't think he could attempt to lead the reforms himself?

Since Philip III's time, the Spanish way of government included a valido. Philipp IV had asserted more control on his valido after Olivares but it was not that efficient. Even if Charles II is healthy, he would probably not be a Louis XIV-lite, if only because Nithard was no Mazarin.
 
Since Philip III's time, the Spanish way of government included a valido. Philipp IV had asserted more control on his valido after Olivares but it was not that efficient. Even if Charles II is healthy, he would probably not be a Louis XIV-lite, if only because Nithard was no Mazarin.
Validos were a result of desinterests.Phillip the IV tried to rule like his grandfather at first but got bored of it in 2 months.One of the biggest issues that validos had were the lack of authority they lacked,so they were forced to spend most of their time building a power base through nepotism.Olivares had such a hard time implementing his reforms because Phillip was more interested on praying and finding a new concubine while his kingdoms were collapsing.Charles for as much bad reputation as he gets couldn't have done much of a better job and the kingdom in fact recovered,kind of, at the end of his reign
 
Validos were a result of desinterests.Phillip the IV tried to rule like his grandfather at first but got bored of it in 2 months.One of the biggest issues that validos had were the lack of authority they lacked,so they were forced to spend most of their time building a power base through nepotism.Olivares had such a hard time implementing his reforms because Phillip was more interested on praying and finding a new concubine while his kingdoms were collapsing.Charles for as much bad reputation as he gets couldn't have done much of a better job and the kingdom in fact recovered,kind of, at the end of his reign

So, if Charles was more healthy, could he have tried to bring back things to some level as they were under his great-grandfather?
 
Well, Spain is probably fucked. If we assume "healthy Charles II" means "he also has kids, probably including at least one son", then Spain won't fall to the Bourbons this generation. But while the Bourbon Family Pact basically made Spain a little "me too" yapping dog to France, it also did mean massive French investment in Spain, causing a certain revitalization. That won't happen here. Also, since Habsburg/Bourbon incest will most likely be continued, probability (though admittedly not certainty) is that eventually you will get a "Charles II" down the line anyway.

In general, the biggest effect by far would then be no War of the Spanish Succession. All of Europe comes out of this change looking a bit better, without 12 years of costly war.
 
Well, Spain is probably fucked. If we assume "healthy Charles II" means "he also has kids, probably including at least one son", then Spain won't fall to the Bourbons this generation. But while the Bourbon Family Pact basically made Spain a little "me too" yapping dog to France, it also did mean massive French investment in Spain, causing a certain revitalization. That won't happen here. Also, since Habsburg/Bourbon incest will most likely be continued, probability (though admittedly not certainty) is that eventually you will get a "Charles II" down the line anyway.

In general, the biggest effect by far would then be no War of the Spanish Succession. All of Europe comes out of this change looking a bit better, without 12 years of costly war.

Intriguing, you don't think a Habsburg monarch or several could attempt the reforms that Philip V and Carlos III instituted?
 
the Habsborgs tried weakly to implement reforms. Philip V had a good start, but then petered out when Farnese decided Spain should spend most of its efforts in recovering lost Italian holdings. Carlos III had the most success with reforms, and it is a stretch to say France enabled them. There is absolutely no reason a line of healthy (both mind and body) somewhat competent Habsburgs couldn't effect some reform/stability, especially over as long a period as OTL Bourbons took. A big drawback for the Habsburgs is that Philip V was able, thanks to French arms/WOSS, to largely centralize gov't. That would be a tough row to hoe in a peaceful line of succession. There could be successful alternatives, and centralization doesn't automatically mean success, but it does make it easier for a small faction to rule.

there would be changes to the last quarter of the 17th century, where everyone domestically and foreign, was lining up and lining pockets getting ready for a WOSS, but as stated, the massive change is avoiding WOSS. Once you make that large a change, you make immense, largely unforeseeable, changes to history. Simply changing the way France approaches Spain in the nine years war could have massive repercussions.
 
So, if Charles was more healthy, could he have tried to bring back things to some level as they were under his great-grandfather?
He could try but he would need to clean all the institutions from the rampant nepotism of the bureacracy.
Well, Spain is probably fucked. If we assume "healthy Charles II" means "he also has kids, probably including at least one son", then Spain won't fall to the Bourbons this generation. But while the Bourbon Family Pact basically made Spain a little "me too" yapping dog to France, it also did mean massive French investment in Spain, causing a certain revitalization. That won't happen here. Also, since Habsburg/Bourbon incest will most likely be continued, probability (though admittedly not certainty) is that eventually you will get a "Charles II" down the line anyway.

In general, the biggest effect by far would then be no War of the Spanish Succession. All of Europe comes out of this change looking a bit better, without 12 years of costly war.
Spain was alredy recovering in the last years of Charles rule. And what French investment are you talking about? We are talking about mercantilist societies not capitalistic ones. Spain put tariffs on France and banned any importation of textiles from France for example. Are you talking about loans? I have never heared of that and in fact Spanish debt was better regarded in Amsterdam than French one for most of the XVIII century and in fact France would be in a way worse financial situation than Spain throughout all the century.
I am interested about this supposed investments because I have never heared about them
 
the Habsborgs tried weakly to implement reforms. Philip V had a good start, but then petered out when Farnese decided Spain should spend most of its efforts in recovering lost Italian holdings. Carlos III had the most success with reforms, and it is a stretch to say France enabled them. There is absolutely no reason a line of healthy (both mind and body) somewhat competent Habsburgs couldn't effect some reform/stability, especially over as long a period as OTL Bourbons took. A big drawback for the Habsburgs is that Philip V was able, thanks to French arms/WOSS, to largely centralize gov't. That would be a tough row to hoe in a peaceful line of succession. There could be successful alternatives, and centralization doesn't automatically mean success, but it does make it easier for a small faction to rule.

there would be changes to the last quarter of the 17th century, where everyone domestically and foreign, was lining up and lining pockets getting ready for a WOSS, but as stated, the massive change is avoiding WOSS. Once you make that large a change, you make immense, largely unforeseeable, changes to history. Simply changing the way France approaches Spain in the nine years war could have massive repercussions.

Hmm interesting, would France look to annex the entirety of the Spanish Netherlands then in such a scenario?
 
He could try but he would need to clean all the institutions from the rampant nepotism of the bureacracy.

Spain was alredy recovering in the last years of Charles rule. And what French investment are you talking about? We are talking about mercantilist societies not capitalistic ones. Spain put tariffs on France and banned any importation of textiles from France for example. Are you talking about loans? I have never heared of that and in fact Spanish debt was better regarded in Amsterdam than French one for most of the XVIII century and in fact France would be in a way worse financial situation than Spain throughout all the century.
I am interested about this supposed investments because I have never heared about them

Would Charles marry his otl first wife then as part of a peace deal? And perhaps sire one or two sons from her?
 
Would Charles marry his otl first wife then as part of a peace deal? And perhaps sire one or two sons from her?
Most likely. The Spanish monarchy was distancing itself from the minor Habsburg branch of Austria and was orbitating between France and the Dutch-English so a marriage with France makes the most sense.
 
Most likely. The Spanish monarchy was distancing itself from the minor Habsburg branch of Austria and was orbitating between France and the Dutch-English so a marriage with France makes the most sense.

Alright and if Louis had daughter himself, I imagine that's who Charles would marry
 
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