Carloginian Empire Disintigrates

  • Thread starter Deleted member 1487
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Deleted member 1487

What if the Carloginian Empire splinters into several kingdoms after Charlomange's death? In OTL there was a period of civilwar after his death, what would it take for the war to cause the break up of the empire into more than 3 kingdoms? Perhaps the generals become fed up with the bickering of the sons of charlomange and go their own ways.

What becomes of europe and how does this effect european history?
 

Deleted member 1487

no, in OTL basically 3 empires were formed out of the break up of the carolginian empire. I am asking what would happen what would happen if is did not happen, rather the generals, instead of forming around the 3 sons of charlemagne decided to sieze territory and carve out their own kingdoms.
 
no, in OTL basically 3 empires were formed out of the break up of the carolginian empire. I am asking what would happen what would happen if is did not happen, rather the generals, instead of forming around the 3 sons of charlemagne decided to sieze territory and carve out their own kingdoms.
Well, the Aquitanians would definetly declare independence... and get steamrolled by the invading Muslims. I personally doubt that the Islamics in Europe will stay in France for a prolonged period of time, except the southern coast. I did something like this, but it had Charlemagne dying early. I don't think an HRE will form per se, but a loose confedracy may form...
 
Big problem is that the imperial title is pretty mighty juju. It won't just go away. You'd have to have the sons screw up majorly to have it drop out of use.

If it happens, the most likely fracturing lines are going to be the old dukedoms and kingdoms. I can't see any court noble taking control over some territory - they lacked support and access to resources without the imperial power to call on them. Most likely the entire court structure will be discredited - this could extend to the church, where Eigenkirchen and traditional bishoprics could see a new boost of influence against the reform monasteries and royal chapel.

You could well see Saxony breaking off entirely from the Carolingian tradition and hitching its fortunes to Denmark. Thuringia, Bavaria, Gascony, Bretagne and Aquitaine all have their own local traditions of government and could well simply stop deferring to the royal centre. Francia is likely to stay in one piece. Frisia may stick with Francia, but there's still a chance it will go its own way. The Lombard kingdom, of course, can always revert to being its own kingdom, as it did later. If it happens early enough, that could be bad news for the papacy - the 9th century popes weren't exactly models of probity or political genius.

Personally., I think the imperial title will stay in play even if the Carolingian family loses its prestige.
 
The sons did drop the use of it. The title Roman Emperor was one that Charlemagne did not consider hereditary, and the only reason that he got it was because technically not being used, since Irene was ruling in Constantinople, and only men could be Emperors. The title was not resurrected until Otto I decided that he wanted to be more than King of Germany.

In order to have Charlemagne disintegrate more than it did OTL, you just need more sons. More sons=more claimants, and Charlemagne would divy up the Empire on his death. So give him like 6 sons, and you would have 6 kingdoms.
 
The sons did drop the use of it. The title Roman Emperor was one that Charlemagne did not consider hereditary, and the only reason that he got it was because technically not being used, since Irene was ruling in Constantinople, and only men could be Emperors. The title was not resurrected until Otto I decided that he wanted to be more than King of Germany.

No, sorry, the imperial title stayed with the Carolingians. It was not considered hereditary, which was why Charlemagne designated his son Louis his co-emperor in his lifetime and afterwards the popes managed to create a tradition of being instrumental to acquiring it. But Louis the Pious was emperor, as were Lothair, Louis the Younger, Charles the Bald and, after a hiatus, Charles the Fat and a bunch of Italian nonentities. Otto I resurrected the title's prestige, but it was certainly in currency.
 
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