Speculation: I was reading about the Hansa league the other day. And what caught my attention was their war against King Valdemar IV of Denmark, which went quite well for them. In 1368 they captured Copenhagen and forced the King to flee. He appointed Henning Podebusk to negotiate, and Podebusk got what seems like a good deal for the King, enabling him to return.

So, what if Valdemar appoints a less skilled negotiator ?

Valdemar lives and dies in exile and the Hansas star rises further, with the addition of the straights. It is also a westward shift in the league power. Denmark is weakened, and several cities may become factories for the Hansa, eventually Hansa cities themselves.

Down the line, Colombus, with his unique combination of drive, stubbornness and geographical ineptitude is butterflied. But the processes that drove Portuguese traders to Brazil and fishermen from the Basque and Bristol to the Grand Banks keep going. Salt fish was the backbone of Hansa wealth, and we have a strengthened Hansa league growing in the North Atlantic. At this point the Hansa may, if things have gone somewhat their way since Valdemar, have a fairly stable setup in northern Europe. They may be interested in expansion opportunities elsewhere, and they have the best shipping tech going.

We could see Hansa cities growing in North America, starting on Newfoundland. The entire thing since the 1360s would also certainly butterfly Martin Luther and the reformation, meaning that the salt fish trade remains important and hugely profitable, leading to a longer period of prominence for the league.

But what really caught my fancy was further exploration down the coast of North America, possibly meeting the Portuguese coming the other way and encountering the gold-rich Mesoamericans, leading to trading posts and cities in the Caribbean.

This has some fascinating effects on the Americas. Old world diseases spread from the population-dense Amazon civilization(s) and the sparsely populated Newfoundland rather than starting in the Mesoamerican heartland. Epidemics will come to the Mesoamericans from the edges of their empires and sweep inwards rather than start near the capitals. There will be a grace period between the disease and the coming of the Europeans, rather than having nutters with guns, foaming at the moth with gold fever, following immediately on the plagues.

And rather than the conquistadors model of colonization, we get the trading-city model, something closer to the Phoenicians practice.

I am just brainstorming here, what do you think?
 
Last edited:
Hmm, seems like a good concept. If they manage to get to the area around St. Johns in Newfoundland then they have a good place for Agriculture, fishing the Grand Banks, and mining very high quality Iron Ore.

I also had an idea once about a surviving Vinland establishing ties to the Hansa and trading Maple products solely through them (Maple Sugar/ Maple Syrup) as well as Walrus Ivory and various Pelts.
 
We could see Hansa cities growing in North America, starting on Newfoundland. The entire thing since the 1360s would also certainly butterfly Martin Luther and the reformation, meaning that the salt fish trade remains important and hugely profitable, leading to a longer period of prominence for the league.

But what really caught my fancy was further exploration down the coast of North America, possibly meeting the Portuguese coming the other way and encountering the gold-rich Mesoamericans, leading to trading posts and cities in the Caribbean.

This has some fascinating effects on the Americas. Old world diseases spread from the population-dense Amazon civilization(s) and the sparsely populated Newfoundland rather than starting in the Mesoamerican heartland. Epidemics will come to the Mesoamericans from the edges of their empires and sweep inwards rather than start near the capitals. There will be a grace period between the disease and the coming of the Europeans, rather than having nutters with guns, foaming at the moth with gold fever, following immediately on the plagues.

And rather than the conquistadors model of colonization, we get the trading-city model, something closer to the Phoenicians practice.

An overall interesting situation; one I could see progression similarly to that of New France: trade posts are set up to extract wealth (furs, foodstuffs, etc), but overt conquest of the Native Americans is more or less avoided, leading to a more pro-Hansa view among many North American tribes (assuming they come into contact with the Hansa in the first place). Fishing rights will be extremely important, as will logging rights in order to secure a steady supply of timber for naval expansion. How England responds to this rejuvenated Hansa will decide what shape North/Central America takes
 
The real problem in this scenario IMO is how to get the Hansa to function as a state entity. It was powerful at specific times and places largely because its most important members could agree on policy, but it never had anything like a central governing authority, a military, or a sense of unity. That will need to be addresseds. Posit, say, a dominance of Lübeck and its immediate neighbours, the Wendish quarter. You would need to give them some kind of territorial basis, but in their balkanised neighbourhood, that would actually be possible. Getting them to agree - harder. But with that kind of core, you might find a way to add the Rhenish Hansa cities to make a real power.

It's difficult. It'd be sort of like getting the Council of Europe to organise a military occupation of Syria and parlaying that into dominating the global oil trade.
 
The real problem in this scenario IMO is how to get the Hansa to function as a state entity. It was powerful at specific times and places largely because its most important members could agree on policy, but it never had anything like a central governing authority, a military, or a sense of unity. That will need to be addresseds. Posit, say, a dominance of Lübeck and its immediate neighbours, the Wendish quarter. You would need to give them some kind of territorial basis, but in their balkanised neighbourhood, that would actually be possible. Getting them to agree - harder. But with that kind of core, you might find a way to add the Rhenish Hansa cities to make a real power.

It's difficult. It'd be sort of like getting the Council of Europe to organise a military occupation of Syria and parlaying that into dominating the global oil trade.

History has a precedent for extraordinary figures rising and uniting a fractured group that nonetheless show potential. Alexander, Genghis Khan, Otto von Bismarck, these people do happen. Something with drive, vision and resources might be able to get in front of the Hansa and explain to them how much money they might be able to make if they worked closer together.

A big worry for me is how they source their military strength. You can't build an empire on mercenaries, no matter how rich you are, their prices are high and their loyalty is fleeting. If you get in a tough spot where your nation's survival and prosperity depends on a lot of people dying for the cause, the mercenaries will be the first to ride into the sunset, their purses fat with gold.
 
Could Natives acquire Western technology while dealing with the *Hansa?

If an Exchange is made earlier, then the natives would have a smoother technology gradient to get over and would be facing something other than a hoard of zealous, gold-hungry Spanish jocks ready to enslave and exterminate them. German Merchants may be more inclined to trade with the natives and sell them European, or second-hand Chinese and Arab, technology, all for a price.
 
If you mean guns, then it would seem likely. The Hanseatic merchants need to trade something in exchange for furs, and guns would be a highly prized trade good. I mean, the French did the same thing.

And remember that a gun is only an ornate stick without ammunition. Once a tribe as been given guns and develops a dependence on them, you could fix any price to your continued and reliable supply of gunpowder and shot.
 
Top