If the development of the railroads in the United States were slower, Cincinnati would have been much more important for a much longer period of time
Capital Cities and Strategic Centers of an Alternate World?
- Thread starter Achaemenid Rome
- Start date
This is quite an old theory in my opinion and fairly revisionist. If this theory is correct, then it would seem quite odd that we have the strongest Iranian state rise (Safavids) since the Sassanids.
You are correct on Iraq in this manner, but the damage has already been done before the Mongols had arrived, they simply were the nail in the coffin, if you like. The wars of the Late Abbasid destroyed far more arable land than the Mongols, which was more important than Baghdad or Basra. Since the Assyrian empire, Iraq had been declining in relevance until by the time the Mongols arrived, it was a shell of itself.
Others have mentioned Tyre, Alexandria, and Carthage. To them I will add Rhodes, which is well placed in the Aegean to be a major trading hub in the region, and Knossos in Crete. Also, in the event of no Constantinople, Nikomedia stands to gain as the most important city next to Antioch in the middle east.
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What about surviving Mesoamerican cities in an "Unsuccessful Spanish Conquest" scenario? Perhaps one of them (Tzintzuntzan?) undergoes something like the Tenochtitlan to Mexico City treatment?
One idea I always thought would be fun to work with was surviving Mesoamerican kingdoms and statelets in an age of Caribbean piracy. Some cities could develop along the lines of Havana. Strategic ports to trade products from the interior while also funneling supplies to support various allies, proxy states, or rebellions in captured provinces. Something like a cosmopolitan Maya city in Belize or Yucatan becoming a hub of trade in luxury goods and contraband, defended by Indigenous refugees, escaped slaves and pirate mercenaries.
One idea I always thought would be fun to work with was surviving Mesoamerican kingdoms and statelets in an age of Caribbean piracy. Some cities could develop along the lines of Havana. Strategic ports to trade products from the interior while also funneling supplies to support various allies, proxy states, or rebellions in captured provinces. Something like a cosmopolitan Maya city in Belize or Yucatan becoming a hub of trade in luxury goods and contraband, defended by Indigenous refugees, escaped slaves and pirate mercenaries.
dirtyjapaneseman
Banned
Dakar could have been much larger than it was OTL. it's situated on a peninsula that comes directly out of west africa and was an important stop for travelers making the trip around south africa and was a major city and administrative center of the french sahara. i could easily see it become more important and with a far larger population if more investment is put into senegal and mali, thus increasing the need for a large harbor city that will help in the import/export of goods.
also thread revival, this is a really interesting topic.
also thread revival, this is a really interesting topic.
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Tadmor as the capital of a(n Western) Aramaic-speaking Islamic state? Yay!
Senegal, Mali/french sudan, perhaps Mauritania, and even the Spanish Sahara could have ended up as one sovereign state after decolonisation.
OTL Senegal left the union, perhaps if Mali had offered to place the capital in Dakar Senegal might have stayed.
dirtyjapaneseman
Banned
I could see that happening. Do you think that The Gambia could have been convinced to join or is the language barrier too much?
Going back to Morocco again, Basra, an archaeological site nowadays used by the Idrisids historically, could be one of the major cities of the country nowadays.
Anchorage, Alaska, could be far bigger than nowadays, probably by means of Japanese colonisation which I think would have more need for Alaska and thus higher priority on Alaska than Russian or American colonisation did. I'll add the river valleys of the Lena/Aldan River in the Sakha Republic. With the HUGE amount of resources there (coal, iron, most everything else), these areas could be far, far more developed than nowadays. Comparable to Ukraine or the American Midwest. The main impediment is permafrost (a major issue but one which can be mitigated) and the climate (close to the coldest places outside Antarctica, but humans can just wear coats/burn fuel to stay warm), but I think agriculturally, a mixture of buckwheat and certain strains of quinoa can be planted which can at least sustain the region so importing food isn't an issue. Once again, the Japanese are the ones who might get the most use out of this place, and this would most ideally be from a pre-Sengoku timeline, preferably pre-Mongol to get the Japanese to do this. Now which site in the Lena/Aldan watershed? I'm not sure on that one, but multiple cities on the level of Yakutsk is definitely doable.
I loved this thread, so here's a few for alternate civilisations.
Albany, Western Australia, has one of the best harbours in the region and could in theory have replaced Perth. This goes double for an indigenous civilisation Lands of Red and Gold style, where in that TL Albany is the most important city in the region as capital of the regional empire.
Cahokia. Everything about the site seems god-tier, aside from the lack of defensibility which it would share with any other site in the region. Many other major Mississippian centers, if the culture had thrived even further to not utterly collapse, would remain major centers as pre-Columbian sites did in Mexico. Even minor ones could easily survive as say, county seats in a US-equivalent. Something like the Nodena Site in Arkansas could be as big as Memphis. Memphis's namesake in Egypt I'll add to this, since a nationalistic Egypt (be it a Coptic one or a hardcore Pharaonist one post-Islam) could redevelop Memphis to make it into an important site in the modern world.
The Dalles, Oregon. It's founded on a strategic site by the Columbia River which was an important trading center for millennia by local natives. It could be much, much bigger, particularly by means of a native civilisation.
Certainly if an indigenous California civilisation (Mesoamerica style) developed, the Channel Islands could evolve as the site of a major native trading empire, based on an evolved form of the indigenous Chumash navigation techniques. By that same token, Haida Gwaii/Charlotte Islands could be much, much more important than a British Columbia backwater if the Haida had evolved to a more agricultural civilisation but yet also retaining their naval skills which might allow them to be like the Vikings.
I don't know. Regional impulses were huge then (and now). It would require a popular pan-Africanist approach of a sort which the pan-Africanist leaders of the time tended to neglect. Mauritania and Senegal, definitely, and with Spanish Sahara's shared culture (and Mauritania's interest in the place historically), perhaps it too assuming Morocco can be made not to interfere. But the border now (the Senegal River) is very inconvenient in a historic perspective, since Fulani people in both countries who historically crossed it for agricultural purposes now find it difficult to cross.
It was a thing, but it tragically failed due to short-sighted politicians which Africa has been in no shortage of these past few decades.
Anchorage, Alaska, could be far bigger than nowadays, probably by means of Japanese colonisation which I think would have more need for Alaska and thus higher priority on Alaska than Russian or American colonisation did. I'll add the river valleys of the Lena/Aldan River in the Sakha Republic. With the HUGE amount of resources there (coal, iron, most everything else), these areas could be far, far more developed than nowadays. Comparable to Ukraine or the American Midwest. The main impediment is permafrost (a major issue but one which can be mitigated) and the climate (close to the coldest places outside Antarctica, but humans can just wear coats/burn fuel to stay warm), but I think agriculturally, a mixture of buckwheat and certain strains of quinoa can be planted which can at least sustain the region so importing food isn't an issue. Once again, the Japanese are the ones who might get the most use out of this place, and this would most ideally be from a pre-Sengoku timeline, preferably pre-Mongol to get the Japanese to do this. Now which site in the Lena/Aldan watershed? I'm not sure on that one, but multiple cities on the level of Yakutsk is definitely doable.
I loved this thread, so here's a few for alternate civilisations.
Albany, Western Australia, has one of the best harbours in the region and could in theory have replaced Perth. This goes double for an indigenous civilisation Lands of Red and Gold style, where in that TL Albany is the most important city in the region as capital of the regional empire.
Cahokia. Everything about the site seems god-tier, aside from the lack of defensibility which it would share with any other site in the region. Many other major Mississippian centers, if the culture had thrived even further to not utterly collapse, would remain major centers as pre-Columbian sites did in Mexico. Even minor ones could easily survive as say, county seats in a US-equivalent. Something like the Nodena Site in Arkansas could be as big as Memphis. Memphis's namesake in Egypt I'll add to this, since a nationalistic Egypt (be it a Coptic one or a hardcore Pharaonist one post-Islam) could redevelop Memphis to make it into an important site in the modern world.
The Dalles, Oregon. It's founded on a strategic site by the Columbia River which was an important trading center for millennia by local natives. It could be much, much bigger, particularly by means of a native civilisation.
Certainly if an indigenous California civilisation (Mesoamerica style) developed, the Channel Islands could evolve as the site of a major native trading empire, based on an evolved form of the indigenous Chumash navigation techniques. By that same token, Haida Gwaii/Charlotte Islands could be much, much more important than a British Columbia backwater if the Haida had evolved to a more agricultural civilisation but yet also retaining their naval skills which might allow them to be like the Vikings.
I don't know. Regional impulses were huge then (and now). It would require a popular pan-Africanist approach of a sort which the pan-Africanist leaders of the time tended to neglect. Mauritania and Senegal, definitely, and with Spanish Sahara's shared culture (and Mauritania's interest in the place historically), perhaps it too assuming Morocco can be made not to interfere. But the border now (the Senegal River) is very inconvenient in a historic perspective, since Fulani people in both countries who historically crossed it for agricultural purposes now find it difficult to cross.
It was a thing, but it tragically failed due to short-sighted politicians which Africa has been in no shortage of these past few decades.
Sparta could have been refounded as a major city by Christians (during the Byzantine era) or Muslims (during the Ottoman era) or even the Venetians when they briefly conquered the Peloponnese in the late 17th to early 18th century.
Mystras existed, but it wasn't in the same place and was a fairly minor center, not one strong enough to exert its power over the Peloponnese like ancient Sparta.
Sparti is basically the same place as ancient Sparta, but it's a post-Greek independence creation.
Mystras existed, but it wasn't in the same place and was a fairly minor center, not one strong enough to exert its power over the Peloponnese like ancient Sparta.
Sparti is basically the same place as ancient Sparta, but it's a post-Greek independence creation.
Interesting, I wonder if the site of Basra in Morocco, which is located in a relatively open area, could have been well fortified or if it would be more vulnerable to outside attack than the average city in the region. I suppose if the Idrisids survived, preventing the long series of revolutions and takeovers in the Maghreb, or a later dynasty invested in Basra to rebuild it, then that could preserve the city.
Wow, 10,000 years of being a strategic trading center. If the Northwest were much more densely populated by a native civilization or earlier colonization/syncretist between natives and traders, then perhaps The Dalles could be among the top 10 largest cities in the world.
Well the inhabitants of surviving Cahokia could make it defensible, considering the Mississippian civilizations had the ability to mobilize the construction of mass earthworks. They would just need an actual unified rival to encourage the building of fortification walls around the entirety of the city.
Alexandria Bucephalous. A city founded by Alexander the Great near the Indus. 'Nuff said.
I wonder if it would have been able to survive the next two thousand years of invasions. Looking at a map of the region, one would think that the Hindu Kush would be an impassable barrier, but steppe empires like the Yuezhi, Kushan, White Huns, and Timurids were able to conquer Gandhara and Punjab so many times.
Was there any particular mountain passes that were commonly used to cross from Central Asia into India? The Kushan Pass?
I doubt it could be that big, but the history of the site is very similar to how many important cities in Europe have been inhabited in some form since the Neolithic, like Belgrade for instance, even if only as a small village or trading center between various settlements. The difference is, of course, evolving beyond that point to actually have what we would recognise as a city. If so, it's definitely a strategic location thanks to the geography of the Columbia River.
Still is very, very flat all around. Plus it kinda did have a fortification in the form in the form of a very impressive (if the modern reconstruction at the site is to be believed) palisade, but I suppose that only went around the heart of the city.
Planet of Hats
Donor
Gainsborough, in the English midlands. If Sweyn Forkbeard had lived longer it may have become a more regular capital for the Danes in England; it was in the middle of the old Danelaw and already being used as a staging area.