Canarys held by Kreigsmarine?

Da Pwnzlord

Banned
Usually in discussions about Spain entering WWII on the side of the Axis, the point comes up that the Canary Island would have fallen to Britain in short order and would have been put to use in the Battle of the Atlantic as an anti U-boat base. What if the Kreigsmarine dispatched a couple powerful surface ships and U-boats to the Canarys upon Spain's DoW on the Allies? Say, the Scharnhorst and the Gneisenau (in France during the time frame) try to make it out into the Atlantic and are interned in the Canarys in the days before Spain's entrance into the war. Those ships, combined with cruisers Spanish Navy and backed up by land-based aircraft would make taking the Canarys a significant challange to the Royal Navy, at least in 1941, probably well into 1942. The Royal Navy is mostly tied down in the Med and blocking surface raiders from Germany, and certainly lacks carrier projection that was so often used in island camaigns in the Pacific. It's also worth noting as a corollary that Britain probably doesn't Gibralter anymore.


Then again, it may be too risky to try running the ships there. I have no idea about whether the ports of the Canarys could support capital ships for an extended period. There may not be enough suitable airfields or airplanes to make a good defense. What do the experts think? :eek:
 
Usually in discussions about Spain entering WWII on the side of the Axis, the point comes up that the Canary Island would have fallen to Britain in short order and would have been put to use in the Battle of the Atlantic as an anti U-boat base. What if the Kreigsmarine dispatched a couple powerful surface ships and U-boats to the Canarys upon Spain's DoW on the Allies? Say, the Scharnhorst and the Gneisenau (in France during the time frame) try to make it out into the Atlantic and are interned in the Canarys in the days before Spain's entrance into the war. Those ships, combined with cruisers Spanish Navy and backed up by land-based aircraft would make taking the Canarys a significant challange to the Royal Navy, at least in 1941, probably well into 1942. The Royal Navy is mostly tied down in the Med and blocking surface raiders from Germany, and certainly lacks carrier projection that was so often used in island camaigns in the Pacific. It's also worth noting as a corollary that Britain probably doesn't Gibralter anymore.


Then again, it may be too risky to try running the ships there. I have no idea about whether the ports of the Canarys could support capital ships for an extended period. There may not be enough suitable airfields or airplanes to make a good defense. What do the experts think? :eek:

The ships are slowly starved of fuel and gather rust but they would scare everyone for a while.
 
A brief scare, then they get starved of fuel. No way are any Axis supply convoys making it past the inevitable blockade that the Allies set up.

There could be an interesting situation with the Vichy French, as bases in Morocco suddenly become far more valuable with the likely fall of Gibraltar. Maybe we see an earlier, and more British-led, Operation Torch? the Portuguese would be under enormous pressure to grant basing rights to either side in the Azores, as well.
 

Da Pwnzlord

Banned
A brief scare, then they get starved of fuel. No way are any Axis supply convoys making it past the inevitable blockade that the Allies set up.

There could be an interesting situation with the Vichy French, as bases in Morocco suddenly become far more valuable with the likely fall of Gibraltar. Maybe we see an earlier, and more British-led, Operation Torch? the Portuguese would be under enormous pressure to grant basing rights to either side in the Azores, as well.

Where are Allies blockading the Canarys from exactly? They can't possibly keep enough ships near enough by constantly that a convoy escorted by battlecruisers won't be able to force its way through. Or can they?
 

Cook

Banned
Say, the Scharnhorst and the Gneisenau... The Royal Navy is mostly tied down in the Med and blocking surface raiders from Germany...It's also worth noting as a corollary that Britain probably doesn't Gibralter anymore.

Gneisenau and Scharnhorst constitute about half the German navy’s surface raiders so where they go, the Royal Navy will follow in force.

If Spain’s in then Gibraltar is lost and the Mediterranean is closed, and if they Axis can swing Vichy acquiescence they’d be able to operate aircraft from French Morocco and make things very unpleasant for the British in the area.

Since a belligerent Spain requires more adept German diplomacy a more co-operative Vichy would be on the cards too; sort of a worst case scenario for Britain in late 1940, early 1941.
 
Gneisenau and Scharnhorst constitute about half the German navy?s surface raiders so where they go, the Royal Navy will follow in force.

If Spain?s in then Gibraltar is lost and the Mediterranean is closed, and if they Axis can swing Vichy acquiescence they?d be able to operate aircraft from French Morocco and make things very unpleasant for the British in the area.

Since a belligerent Spain requires more adept German diplomacy a more co-operative Vichy would be on the cards too; sort of a worst case scenario for Britain in late 1940, early 1941.

coughcough *BW's Manstein in Africa* coughcough:D
 

Cook

Banned
coughcough *BW's Manstein in Africa* coughcough:D

Apologies for not having had the time to read it Life, this was coincidental and not a plagiarism of Blair.

I will now have to put Manstein in Africa on the long (and growing longer) list of things to read. I now have twelve books on my bookshelf screaming for attention too.
 
Say, the Scharnhorst and the Gneisenau (in France during the time frame) try to make it out into the Atlantic and are interned in the Canarys in the days before Spain's entrance into the war

If the time frame your talking about is June/July 1940, both are sat in dry dock under repair. Or do you mean mide-1941? In which case it means the Bismarck is out to play but Scharnhorst and Gnesienau are in dry dock again.
 

Da Pwnzlord

Banned
If the time frame your talking about is June/July 1940, both are sat in dry dock under repair. Or do you mean mide-1941? In which case it means the Bismarck is out to play but Scharnhorst and Gnesienau are in dry dock again.

I mean January-Febuary 1941. Hitler asked for passage of German soldiers through Spain to take Gibralter with a date of January 10. Operation Berlin was from late January to March, so I think with a little coordination the plans could have been made to work together. Around May, the Bismark and Prinz Eugen can try to make it to the Canarys themselves.
 
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