I'd say four Spru-cans and four Farraguts at most. If we're throwing the Brookes in we'll have to butterfly the Kang Dings away - which wouldn't be hard, IMVHO, revealing the true extent of the Lafayette Scandal could do it.
Marc A
Canadian Power: The Canadian Forces as a Major Power
- Thread starter TheMann
- Start date
I'd say four Spru-cans and four Farraguts at most. If we're throwing the Brookes in we'll have to butterfly the Kang Dings away - which wouldn't be hard, IMVHO, revealing the true extent of the Lafayette Scandal could do it.
Marc A
I'd say four Spru-cans and four Farraguts at most. If we're throwing the Brookes in we'll have to butterfly the Kang Dings away - which wouldn't be hard, IMVHO, revealing the true extent of the Lafayette Scandal could do it.
Marc A
That should be perfect. Also, the remaining Farraguts get bought by Mexico, how does that sound?
Given that TheMann retconned Canada buying the Clemenceau, Colbert, and later the Des Moines, I'd like to propose solutions to dealing with the retcons.
The Clemenceau and Colbert:
In 2002, France offered to sell the aircraft carrier Clemenceau and the cruiser Colbert to Canada for a rather reasonable price. For several months, arguments raged on and off about whether or not to purchase them. In the end, it was decided not to purchase them. Even though Canada turned down the purchase, they did find a willing buyer for the two ships in the Brazilian government who had previously bought the Foch back in September of 2000. Brazil was a bit hesitant at first, but Canada's offer to help upgrade and reduce the manpower requirements was what clinched the deal for Brazil. The Clemenceau and Colbert would be launched as NAeL Rio de Janiero (A13) and NAeL Republic (C13) February 8, 2006. After several months of sea trials, both ships would be commissioned on September 7, 2006.
The USS Des Moines (CA-134)
In October of 2003, the American government sent messages to the Canadian government in regards to giving them the USS Des Moines. Like with the Clemenceau and Colbert, several months were spent arguing about it and eventually the offer was declined. Canada did however offer to overhaul the Des Moines and bring it back into US service for them given their experience with overhauling decommissioned warships. The Des Moines' refit would take around 40 months to complete and would launch on April 14, 2006. It would be commissioned on November 16, 2006 as part of the USS Enterprise battle group.
Here is the rebuilt USS Des Moines (CA-134). As you can see, it's a hybrid between the HMCS Alaska and HMCS Magnificent rebuilds as well as having the sensor suite of the rebuilt Iowa-class battleships. If their are any changes you think are necessary, please feel free to make them.
Rebuilt USS Des Moines (CA-134) said:
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Them, or Poland, Turkey, and... I dunno, Iran? They are the good guys ITTL, after all.
On second thought, IIRC TheMann mentioned at least one PLAN carrier, which Taiwan will need to get some better anti-air ships some time in the 10s. Improved Burkes? Modified Hobarts? Calgarys?
Marc A
P.S. JudgeKing, sometimes I feel we're necroing this TL...
marcus, we're not necroing this thread. We're keeping this thread alive so that TheMann will hopefully get back to it.
By the way, here's a list of deccommissioned US warships that were scrapped or sunk as targets.
*6 Brooke-class guided missile frigates
*(Which we decided will got to Taiwan)
*10 Farragut-class destroyers
*(Decided that 4 go to Taiwan and 6 to Mexico)
*9 Leahy-class guided missile cruisers
*9 Belknap-class guided missile cruisers
*14 Charles F. Adams-class guided missile destroyers
*15 Knox-class ASW frigates
*30 Spruance-class ASW destroyers
*(4 will go to Taiwan)
By the way, here's a list of deccommissioned US warships that were scrapped or sunk as targets.
*6 Brooke-class guided missile frigates
*(Which we decided will got to Taiwan)
*10 Farragut-class destroyers
*(Decided that 4 go to Taiwan and 6 to Mexico)
*9 Leahy-class guided missile cruisers
*9 Belknap-class guided missile cruisers
*14 Charles F. Adams-class guided missile destroyers
*15 Knox-class ASW frigates
*30 Spruance-class ASW destroyers
*(4 will go to Taiwan)
Like I said earlier, I think Iran can get some of those, as a sign of thawing Iranian-American relations. Brazil can use some ships for their new carrier, too.
With a more powerful China, ROKN, JMSDF, and RAN could probably use more advanced ships. Selling what you've listed above might/might not be a good idea. Hmmm......
Marc A
Truthfully, I have no idea where to go from here with it, and In Defense of Humanity, the upcoming Transport America Version 3.0 and Chipperback's 2012 Racing Season are keeping me busy. If you guys have any ideas where to go, I'm all ears to keep the legend alive.
The Brookes are quite old, and while upgrades kept them useable, these vessels will be over 40 years old in 2010, and frigates tend to not be as tough as cruisers. I can see these lasting longer in USN service, though, if they are comprehensively overhauled in the 1990s, with the 5"/38 being tossed and replaced with either a 76mm unit like the Perrys or a 5"/54 like the Ticonderoga or Burke classes. By the end of the 2000s, they would be suitable for transfer. Taiwan wouldn't take them - too old. I am thinking that Iran, Turkey, Greece, India, South Africa or Thailand might be countries which might take these.
Very old and very worn by the 1990s, missing helicopter hangars and with antiquated electronics and weapons systems. I'd say these ships are gonna be headed for museums or the scrapyard.
See above. These were quite worn by the 1990s, and each one had 30 years service by the time they were decommissioned, and had rather big crew sizes as well. Same fate as the Farragut class DDGs, I think.
These could have longer careers, though they are like the Brookes, needing extensive rebuilds before they would be suitable for longer service. Replace the Mk 10 forward launcher with a Mark 41 VLS, do the requisite electronics upgrades (SPG-62 fire control radar, new electronics for missile control) and make the vessel able to operate the latest helicopters, and you could keep these operation for a while yet.
Same problem as the Farraguts - old, quite worn and without helicopter decks or the ability to be heavily upgraded.
I'm surprised the United States didn't try to move every one of the Knox class vessels. These could also be easily enough improved, though they would need new diesel generators to the requisite electrical power. Ditch the Sea Sparrow at the back and move it to midships with the smaller Mark 29 launchers, use the back for a bigger helicopter pad and fit the diesel generators back there, under the pad. Phalanx CIWS on each side, behind the bridge and next to the mainmast, moving the SLQ-32 units up to a higher position above and behind the CIWS guns.
I can see these being popular as sale units, too - Brazil, Greece, Iran, Egypt and maybe India, South Africa and Thailand, as well as the ROC, of course.
I am also thinking that as Iran moves back into the Western sphere for real (after the 2008 war and a couple years), the USN might just build them their Kidds, with a bunch of improvements, of course. They were ordered and built, but ITTL they wound up in the RCN. These new-build Kidd class vessels might also be an option for the ROCN, though they will undoubtedly want something with the AEGIS combat system.
Like I said earlier, I think Iran can get some of those, as a sign of thawing Iranian-American relations. Brazil can use some ships for their new carrier, too.
With a more powerful China, ROKN, JMSDF, and RAN could probably use more advanced ships. Selling what you've listed above might/might not be a good idea. Hmmm......
Marc A
The JMSDF and ROKN have such shipbuilding industries that they will want to build their own vessels if at all possible. Australia has also moved in that direction, and Australia's experiences with the Newport-class ships they bought was not positive - that's why they didn't buy the Kidd class vessels IOTL, as they were offered them for peanuts. If the USN is gonna move the vessels, they would have to be upgraded and refurbished rather substantially first, and for a cheap price.
Random thought
IOTL the US-Britain Special Relationship is one of the strongest alliances in the world. ITTL I imagine Canada could be added to that, creating what would be known officially as the Special Relationship (that part remain unchanged), unofficially the Three Musketeers, and off-the-record, the Great Ménage à Trois.
Marc A
IOTL the US-Britain Special Relationship is one of the strongest alliances in the world. ITTL I imagine Canada could be added to that, creating what would be known officially as the Special Relationship (that part remain unchanged), unofficially the Three Musketeers, and off-the-record, the Great Ménage à Trois.
Marc A
That sounds like a good name. Given that it launched in 1981, let's say it was renamed in 1984 after Thatcher announced plans to rebuild and reactivate the Audacious-class HMS Ark Royal.
I wonder how the Royal Navy benefited from this TL...
Marc A
As of 2003:
And the military forces of the UK in 2030.
Behold the Royal Australian Navy. Correct this as needed.
*Note-1: The Spruance-class destroyers were license built in Australia according to post 91.
*Note-2: According to the 2008 (Part 1) post, the Hobart was ~1 year old.
*Note-3: According to the 2008 (Part 2) post, Australia built four new Anzac-class frigates to replace the ships lost during the war.
*Note-4: Also on post 91, you mentioned that Australia had built two more Collins-class submarines.
*Note-5: On post 91, you stated that Australia had three Durance-class vessels.
*Note-1: The Spruance-class destroyers were license built in Australia according to post 91.
*Note-2: According to the 2008 (Part 1) post, the Hobart was ~1 year old.
*Note-3: According to the 2008 (Part 2) post, Australia built four new Anzac-class frigates to replace the ships lost during the war.
*Note-4: Also on post 91, you mentioned that Australia had built two more Collins-class submarines.
*Note-5: On post 91, you stated that Australia had three Durance-class vessels.
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1) You have two HMAS Perths, though I suspect the destroyer Perth would have been long retired by the time the frigate Perth is commissioned
2) I only have the Sirius in In Defense of Humanity because the RFA Stromness, which later became USNS Sirius, was one of the ships that reported to the Gathering Order in the Doomsday TL.
3) The first HMAS Australia was retired as a result of the damage it took in the 2008 Indian Ocean war, which is why its replacement was built.
2) I only have the Sirius in In Defense of Humanity because the RFA Stromness, which later became USNS Sirius, was one of the ships that reported to the Gathering Order in the Doomsday TL.
3) The first HMAS Australia was retired as a result of the damage it took in the 2008 Indian Ocean war, which is why its replacement was built.
Ming777
Monthly Donor
There is one thing missing. TheMann stated that the RAN had ordered 6 Calgary Class Guided Missile Frigates Here:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=3366886&postcount=3148
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=3366886&postcount=3148
There, I've corrected that. By the way, what did you think of my solution for dealing with the Clemenceau, Colbert, and Des Moines retcons?
How about (in no particular order):
HMAS Ajax
HMAS Argonaut
HMAS Agamemnon
HMAS Achilles
HMAS Aurora
HMAS Andromeda (?)
Marc A