Canadian Naval Aid Bill passes!!!!!

[alfredtuomi]

Here's a rather interesting what if which i think would have many unexpected consequences.
On May 30th 1913 the canadian Senate(unelected and dominated by the opposition Liberals) defeated the governments Naval aid bill.
Now suppose instead the bill is passed and receives royal assent .
That would land a nice fat cheque for 35 million dollars to cover the cost of three shiny new dreadnoughts for Imperial defence(RN).
Mt feeling is they get laid down asap as improved Queen Elizabeths(as planned) and then the butterflies start doing their thing.
The RN planned for 8 R class but now only need pay for 5,furthermore the need to economize is gone and so instead of the proposed 8 R class(5 built,2 converted and 1 cancelled)the RN ends up with 8 improved Queen Elizabeth's ,5 Queen Elizabeths but no Renown or Repulse.
I don't think this will effect WW1 much(a few more at Jutland),but come September 1939 could make for some interesting changes.

 

[Unconsensual]

They will be cut back during the depression by Bennett-really no way around this (decommissioned or simply keep at pier), not very useful during WWII where Canada's chief naval duty was escorting, and somewhat obsolete in WWII as aircraft dominates the sea.

 

[alfredtuomi]

Well they would have been turned over to the RN to operate with a heavy Canadian complement(that's OTL).Further the Washington Naval Treaty would be there to keep them operational.
Tha actual ownership would be mirky but i doubt laying them up would be allowed.Can't replace them because of WNT.

 

[David S Poepoe]

The Royal Navy, for the most part, abandoned the idea of the 'fast battleship' with the Revenge class. The Queen Elizabeths were considered an expensive class of ships and the Revenge were to be more in line with the British battleline in regards to speed.

If anything, by the time of the WNT the British would scrap more of the 13.5in gunned dreadnoughts and keep these 2-3 ships.

 

[sharlin]

It was more a doctrinal idea that lead to the QEs. They were designed to be a 'fast wing' to the battle fleet and with the introduction of the 15 inch gun it was only logical there would be a dreadnought to carry it, that was the R class. It was too big a doctrinal leap to embrace the fast battleship concept in the Royal Navy.

 

[alfredtuomi]

Well none of the Queens were operational before the Revenges were laid down so the decesion to revert to a 21 knot battle speed had not occored.Further the Revenge class was based on getting 8 dreadnoughts at a lower per unit cost than the Queens.Now that a nice check for 35 million was sitting on the First Lords desk(Churchill and Borden had discussions on this) under the assumption it would cover the cost of 3 Queen Elizabeth class ships that leaves only 5 to be budgeted for.Hence my beleif that the driver to reduce costs is gone and replaced by a driver to make the next 5 ships compatible with the previous 8.
Then come ww2 every time a Revenge class is seen to be dragging its butt around we can substitute a Queen Elizabeth class,making for a more uniform fleet.Possibility of 13 the same depending on how many get time for a rebuild.

 

[David S Poepoe]

Well none of the Queens were operational before the Revenges were laid down so the decesion to revert to a 21 knot battle speed had not occored.Further the Revenge class was based on getting 8 dreadnoughts at a lower per unit cost than the Queens.Now that a nice check for 35 million was sitting on the First Lords desk(Churchill and Borden had discussions on this) under the assumption it would cover the cost of 3 Queen Elizabeth class ships that leaves only 5 to be budgeted for.Hence my beleif that the driver to reduce costs is gone and replaced by a driver to make the next 5 ships compatible with the previous 8.
Then come ww2 every time a Revenge class is seen to be dragging its butt around we can substitute a Queen Elizabeth class,making for a more uniform fleet.Possibility of 13 the same depending on how many get time for a rebuild.

Interesting, but I don't see the Admiralty doing such a thing. The Queen Elizabeth class was sort of an experiment, with HMS Malaya being a gift. I think the Admiralty would look at the lower cost per unit, as you mention, then also consider the greater dependency they would have on oil imports.

With the Queen Elizabeth class barely off the slips I don't see the necessity of applying hindsight to the actions of the Admiralty. The ships haven't proven themselves.

 

[alfredtuomi]

Yes that's the one stumbling block...coal versus oil....but it should be noted that before Royal Oak was completed she was converted to oil burning.And of course the Queen Elizabeths could also burn coal so there is the possibility some would be just coal.
Another thought is with no contracts to convert to the Repulse and Renown(the last three Revenge contracts,one was cancelled)That leaves no 15 inch battlecruisers which raises the question of how the Admiral class is delt with.Maybe sooner with a more hurried construction rate so there are more than one or OTL.
Now assuming all the 15 inch dreadnoughts are built to 25knot or above(i know the Queens only made 24) then when the Nelrods show up surely they would be built to meet or exceed the same speed.With hindsight the weight was there to increse to 72000 shp(half the Hoods machinery)which should give app. 27 knots....much more usefull.
All the things that could have turned out more beneficial if it wasn t for petty political bickering.

 

[David S Poepoe]

Yes that's the one stumbling block...coal versus oil....but it should be noted that before Royal Oak was completed she was converted to oil burning.And of course the Queen Elizabeths could also burn coal so there is the possibility some would be just coal.
Another thought is with no contracts to convert to the Repulse and Renown(the last three Revenge contracts,one was cancelled)That leaves no 15 inch battlecruisers which raises the question of how the Admiral class is delt with.Maybe sooner with a more hurried construction rate so there are more than one or OTL.
Now assuming all the 15 inch dreadnoughts are built to 25knot or above(i know the Queens only made 24) then when the Nelrods show up surely they would be built to meet or exceed the same speed.With hindsight the weight was there to increse to 72000 shp(half the Hoods machinery)which should give app. 27 knots....much more usefull.
All the things that could have turned out more beneficial if it wasn t for petty political bickering.

The Repulse and Renown were built because of the wishes of First Sea Lord Fisher, and have nothing to do with QEs, etc. They are not the gleem in anybody's eye until late 1914.

The Nelrods were purely a product of the Washington Naval Treaty, which dictated tonnage. I still don't see any reason that the Royal Navy would be building ships faster than the QEs, partly since no real concrete plans are available of ships beyond the Revenge class. Its likely that any new ships would be designed to work with the existing battleline, with incremental increases in speed.

The Admiral class does show that eventually there was a hydrid of battleship and battlecruiser, but if they would have arrived at it without the Great War is an open question.

Clearly, there was no intention to build any battlecruisers after HMS Tiger.

 

[alfredtuomi]

The Repulse and Renown were built from the conversion of 2 contracts for 2 revenge class battleships.If the aid bill passes then there probably would only be 5 Revenge class ordered not 8,all of which would be too far along by the start of ww1 to cancel(as in OTL).Therefore no funds or material set aside for Fisher to divert to building Repulse and Renown.So it stands to reason they would'nt get built.
Now assuming the Revenge's get built to the same speed as the Queen's......you have 5 Queens plus 3 Canadian "improved" Queens under construction designed for 25knots and the funds for 8 Revenges but only want another five...............it would seem more practical and now financially viable to make them all designed for 25 knots.
So now the Washington treaty rolls along and the ships you plan on keeping can make 24 knots.....why would you not make the Nelrods for atleast that speed. 56000 shaft horsepower(N3 powerplant) should give 25+knots or half of Hoods power plant should give 27 knots.

 

[David S Poepoe]

I think we should look around for information upon these 'improved Queen Elizabeths'. From what I understand they was to be improvement in the distribution of armour and the secondary armament.

The Revenges, most likely won't be to the same design, since there is no proof in 1913 that the Queen Elizabeths are superior vessels (excluding armament).

The Nelrods' design was governed by Treaty with set tonnage and armament size, so its problematic without working the weights to consider what the speed most likely would be. Remember the power plant to get 25+ knots will weigh alot and take up alot of room.

 

[alfredtuomi]

The info on the proposed canadian dreadnoughts is skimpy......all i can find is 25 knots designed speed and same armament.....so probably just a slight evolutionary change.
Again i believe the main driver to change from Queen Elizabeth to the R class was financial so that would leave open the possibility of more but fewer Queen Elizabeth's.
The power plant for the Nelrods came in at a weight of 2329 tons.
The actual displacement in standard form varies from about 500 to almost 2000 tons under treaty limit ...varying both by source of info and accounting methods.....60 rounds per gun stated or 100/120 rounds that could be carried.But the general consensus was that they were significantly under weight....to the point of embarassment.
The machinery estimate for the N3(56000) was 2720 tons and 152 of engine/boiler room.The Nelrods appear to have about 140 feet of engine/boiler room....so that should be doable(assuming the ASB drop a laptop configured with autocad onto dnc's desk complete with Nerd of course)
They were being anal about keeping the weight below Treaty limits....probabaly rightfully so at this date.
Now half of Hood's machinery(72000) might be a tight fit needing some winking and nodding.....it would come in at 3300 tons.....but the weight hull/armour space required could be a problem.
I'm mostly sourcing from D K Brown's trilogy on the RN warships.