Canadian military AH

Hyperion

Banned
Okay, here is my ideas for timeline where Canada keeps carriers in the navy.

In the 1960s through 1990s, Canadian politicians are somewhat more flexible about defense spending.

While some homegrown plans such as the Arrow fighter are scrapped, several deals are worked out which develop several interesting foreign purchases.

The Canadian land forces are modified to include a full seperate airborne regiment, primarily with helicopter deployed troops. Though other units do keep parachute trained detachments.

In addition, the Canadians maintain another active duty infantry regiment made up of the Canadian dragoons. Both of these units are made up of regiments that would in OTL have been disbanded.

The Canadian navy ends up purchasing two Spanish designed carriers, essentially sister ships to the Thailand navy carrier.

See carrier: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_aircraft_carrier_Chakri_Nareubet

Main difference is these ships are ordered some years sooner, and are managed more efficiently, and taken better care of.

The main aircraft for the two ships are Harriers and helicopters. Canada buys 40 Harriers. Twenty go to the navy, and twenty go to the air force, as Canadian generals on peacekeeping missions during the 1970s and early 1980s mention that for some trouble spots they've been to, an aircraft like the Harrier which doesn't need a major runway, but that carries the firepower of more conventional aircraft could come in handy in future conflicts for supporting ground forces.

The carriers Usually have a group of 10 Harriers, and 8 helicopters. Two Helicopters for AWACs duty, two designed for midair refueling, and the other four designed for either ASW or transport as needed.

To support these carriers, canada has sixteen frigates added to the inventory of ships, along with six destroyers.

For submarines, Canada ends up making a deal with Norway for licensing agreements to build a total of eight submarines of the Ula class: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ula_class_submarine

Somewhat smaller than the Victorias they currently use, but more modern designs, and each individual boat uses less crewmen.

The Canadian air forces, in addition to having twenty Harriers, also purchase three additional squadrons worth of CF-18s, and one additional squadron of C-130s, as well as two additional tanker aircraft.
 

Hyperion

Banned
Well what kind of action does the CF see?

A few more peacekeeping missions.

I would think also that some ground forces might be available for Desert Storm. Probably a battalion sized force attached to the British army units.

That and possible a squadron of Harriers for ground support missions.

Where things get interesting later, is I'm thinking of having one of the two carriers could play a role in Desert Fox in 1998. I'm also figuring on an F-18 squadron being involved as well.

Basically the Canadian Forces of today would be around 100,000 forces active duty, instead of 67,000 that there are right now, as well as several thousand more reserves, but nothing major.

Mainly some units that would have been disbanded after the Cold War are kept in service, and money for some personnel is shifted from one service branch to the other.

With the exception of the two light carriers, basically a somewhat larger version of what they have today IRL.
 

Ming777

Monthly Donor
I would suggest carriers more like the original Principe de Asturias. The Thai carrier could only hold 6 harriers and 6 helicopters, you can only so much with a micro carrier. It's far too small to satisfy the needs of Canada.
 

Hyperion

Banned
I would suggest carriers more like the original Principe de Asturias. The Thai carrier could only hold 6 harriers and 6 helicopters, you can only so much with a micro carrier. It's far too small to satisfy the needs of Canada.

That might be a good idea. So maybe each carrier now has 20 Harriers, and say 8 helicopters.
 

Ming777

Monthly Donor
That's sound more like it. Just remember, Harriers are really good birds, but are still a little behind contemporary CTOL and CATOBAR aircraft.

PS: Please also state the intended POD; it would need to be sufficiently early enough to butterfly Trudeau's butchering of the forces.
 
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Just have PET lose in 1968, which can be done if all the anti-PET forces unite behind Winters at the Liberal convention.
 
Is the Canadian military still unified like in OTL, or is there still a seperate Canadian Army, Royal Canadian Navy, and Royal Canadian Air Force? Or could they only be partially intergrated like in Australia?
 
If Trudeau doesn't get in the PMO, that means no Hellyer at Defence, so no unification. To quote the distinguished Canadian military historian Jack Granatstein, reversing unification would be "like unscrambling eggs".
 

Hyperion

Banned
Is the Canadian military still unified like in OTL, or is there still a seperate Canadian Army, Royal Canadian Navy, and Royal Canadian Air Force? Or could they only be partially intergrated like in Australia?

I was figuring on basically a unified military the same as the OTL Canadian Forces, just somewhat larger, with some units, mainly ground forces and air forces, that would have been disbanded in budget cuts and particularly units disbanded after the Cold War still being kept in active service.

That and if need be the two carriers can leave the Harrier squadrons at home and take a full load of helicopters instead. While the don't have facilities for carrying tanks or landing craft, I figure they could if need be, carry say 5, 6 hundred infantry and their personnal equipment if need be. That and they would be perfect for doing a major evacuation where you need a lot of helicopters very fast.

That would be a very good thing for peacekeeping missions where you want to have troops in or out fast, and if you need to do search and rescue, nothing like having 20-30 helicopters ready at a moments notice.
 
Okay, here is my ideas for timeline where Canada keeps carriers in the navy.

In the 1960s through 1990s, Canadian politicians are somewhat more flexible about defense spending.


The Canadian land forces are modified to include a full seperate airborne regiment, primarily with helicopter deployed troops. Though other units do keep parachute trained detachments.

In addition, the Canadians maintain another active duty infantry regiment made up of the Canadian dragoons. Both of these units are made up of regiments that would in OTL have been disbanded.

A few questions:

1) Seeing as the CF does receive an increase in funding, then in this timeline would 4 CMBG see action during the Gulf War?
(Historically, due to lack of funding, and poor logistical/overall defense policies 4 CMBG were unable to deploy during the conflict).

2) Does the Canadian Airborne Regiment still exist as well, or is it never formed?(Due to the fact that the CAR was made up of pers who volunteered for jump training, it was made up of members from the RCR's, PPCLI and VanDoos)

Or, is the CAR still formed, alongside an actual direct entry Airborne Regiment? Also, the CAR had helos in their inventory, until they were passed over to Air Command.

3) Also, are the Canadian Guards, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada and Black Watch kept on? I don't understand why they would be amalgamated into a regiment of dragoons since none of these regiments are traditionally armored.
 
Heh! Partially integrated with what? When?

I think he means a system similar to that of Britain. Back in the sixties the War Office, Air Ministry and Admiralty were all merged into one government department (the MOD) but all of the branches maintained their independence and identity. The Canadian military on the other hand was completely unified - all the old traditions were abolished and replaced with a unified and symetrical system.

Russell
 

Larrikin

Banned
Is the Canadian military still unified like in OTL, or is there still a seperate Canadian Army, Royal Canadian Navy, and Royal Canadian Air Force? Or could they only be partially intergrated like in Australia?

"Partially integrated like in Australia" News to me, and I worked for the Aust DoD for a decade and a half, and before that was a Reservist.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
A few more peacekeeping missions.

I would think also that some ground forces might be available for Desert Storm. Probably a battalion sized force attached to the British army units.

Something to think about is that there politically wasn't a huge reason for having the Canadian Forces in Desert Storm, apart from them trashing the Canadian Embassy.

And even sending the CF-18 unit over there was a big deal in 1991. That meant you had serious force deployments on three continents, not counting the peacekeeping missions in Cyprus, Lebanon, and central Africa.

I pitched an idea once that had a few straggling Canadian embassy employees killed by a stray Iraqi tank round, which sparks a controversy at home. 4CMBG could've been sent to the desert alongside VII Corps when it was brought into theatre, albeit in a very different form. But the core units, the Leopards, M113s, and whatnot, could've been sent from Europe while other units came from bases in the provinces.
 
The biggest problem with Canada's defense policies is twofold. Primarily, the government is often short sighted when it comes to national defense, and only after a threat emerges, is there any inclination to do anything about it. Secondly, Canada's policy for procurement is fundamentally flawed and generally ends up buying an extreme downgrade from whatever the CF actually wanted.

Also, Trudeau and his lefty agenda did much to destroy Canada’s armed forces.
 
The biggest problem with Canada's defense policies is twofold. Primarily, the government is often short sighted when it comes to national defense, and only after a threat emerges, is there any inclination to do anything about it. Secondly, Canada's policy for procurement is fundamentally flawed and generally ends up buying an extreme downgrade from whatever the CF actually wanted.

Also, Trudeau and his socialist, anti-American agenda did much to destroy Canada’s armed forces.

Amen, and fixed. ;)
 
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